Liver infection in panther chameleon

[Geckoflora]

So this is a bit of an update to this thread

Ramses's weird behavior continued, and for the last week he's almost acted a little disoriented? A little difficult to explain, but his behavior has changed a bit and he seems a little less coordinated and doesn't move around as smoothly.

He went to the vet this morning and during the initial examination, his vet felt a slightly lumpier spot in his abdomen, so they went ahead and did an ultrasound. The ultrasound showed that his gallbladder was enlarged, so the vet also drew some blood and was able to run some initial blood work.

His white blood cell count was slightly elevated, and putting the blood through a machine showed a very elevated amount of a certain type of enzyme (can't remember the name) which indicates a possible liver type infection. I won't have the full blood work results until next week to know what the exact problem is or what is causing it.

I mostly wanted to see if anyone else has had experience with this kind of thing? What could I expect? I'm pretty worried about my boy.

And could these symptoms + liver infection possibly be related to adenovirus? I did babysit a bearded dragon two months ago and learned a few weeks later that he had adenovirus. I was careful in keeping him separate and washing hands while he was here but I wasn't sure if my chameleon's problems could at all be related.

The vet did give some medications to help (an antibiotic, an anti-inflammatory/pain med, and a liver support med).

 

[JacksJill]

Good instincts on your part on getting him to the vet. It's so hard to interpret their behavior sometimes.
I hope the meds have him feeling better soon.

 

[kinyonga]

Bilirubin? What medications were given to him?

 

[JacksJill]

AST and/or AST are used to measure inflammation or damage to cells in the liver in mammals. Was it one of those?

 

[Geckoflora]

Bilirubin? What medications were given to him?

Enrofloxacin for the antibiotic, meloxicam for inflammation/pain, and lactulose with milk thistle for liver support

AST and/or AST are used to measure inflammation or damage to cells in the liver in mammals. Was it one of those?

I don't remember unfortunately! The vet should be calling me on Monday or Tuesday with the rest of the blood work results so I'll ask then and let you know

 

[Geckoflora]

Should I be making him drink? His eyes are looking sunken in and he hasn't shown much interest in drinking the last few days (usually he drinks when I offer a stream of water from his pump mister). I used a syringe to trickle a bit of warm water into his mouth while I held it open slightly.

He isn't as interested in eating either. I put 5 or 6 crickets in two days ago, and he must have eaten a few of them but there are still 3 that I can see crawling around in there that he doesn't seem to care about. Since he ate a few of them I'm not going to resort to force feeding, but I'm wondering if mashing up hornworms and using a syringe to feed them to him would help if he continues not to eat in the next few days? I've tried to feed him the hornworms already and he has not interest.

I figure it will take a few days before the medications start to (hopefully) take effect, and I don't want him to dehydrate or skip his eating too much.

 

[kinyonga]

When a chameleon is on enrofloxacin it's important to keep it well hydrated...be careful though...don't spray water at it's face...a dripper is better so it won't aspirate the water. Using a needless syringe is ok too but just ease the water in...don't squirt it. If the meds are given orally the same applies to them....don't squirt it in forcefully...you don't want to get it in the chameleons lungs. Also while it's drinking and the mouth is opening and shutting you can try to slip a cricket into it's mouth head first and so it ends up between the chameleons teeth so it gets bitten. Your chameleon may eat this way.

Hope this helps and that your chameleon recovers!

 

[Geckoflora]

Okay, thanks for the advice!

I've been careful to only trickle water into his mouth, I definitely don't want him inhaling it. I'm not really sure how much I should be giving him at once so I've only given small amounts so far but I might increase it. His sunken eyes are really worrying me. I have calcium liquid drops- would it be a good idea to add those to the water I'm giving him?

And I'll try the trick with the cricket tomorrow! Is there anything else I could give him to help? I didn't see any kind of critical care for Insectivores but I could be wrong. What about something like Fluker's reptile appetite stimulant kind of thing?

He's also been pretty inactive. He went to sleep tonight but never left his spot at the top of his cage, which is weird for him as he has never slept there before.

Does anyone know how long it could take for the medications (especially the antibiotic) to start having a noticeable effect? I've given enrofloxacin to rodents before and it usually is 3-4 days before I see a change in symptoms, but I've never given it to a chameleon before. I'm hoping that if he can make it a few more days, even if I have to force feed/water, then the meds will help him perk him.

 

[kinyonga]

This is a bug juice recipe that might help...
http://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

Eyes can be sunken in from dehydration but they also sink in when the chameleon is sick and it's hard to get they back to normal until the sickness is cured.

In three or four days you should see an improvement but don't forget chameleons are slower than warm blooded critters so it might take longer.

What is the basking temperature at? It may be a good thing that he is sitting there. Chameleons don't get fevers but can create the same effect by warming up more than usual.

 

[Geckoflora]

Thanks! Might give the recipe a try

His eyes are looking less sunken today, and I gave him water with a syringe again this morning to make sure he stays hydrated. Also got him to eat a cricket using your suggestion! I'll try hornworms later as well

His basking temp is around 90-95. He sometimes sits under his basking bulb or moves to sit under his UVB a few inches away, but hasn't really moved much from that area.

I'm getting more and more concerned that it could be adenovirus but I can't find much info about adenovirus on panther chameleons unfortunately. Hopefully the blood work results will give me a better idea if its adenovirus or not.

 

[kinyonga]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230843/
"The most common clinical sign in squamates is anorexia, which can also be associated with lethargy and wasting. Central nervous symptoms including head tilt, opisthotonus, and circling have been described [88–90]. In individual cases, stomatitis [91] and dermatitis [92] have also been described. The primary pathogenic role of AdVs has been questioned in many cases in which they were detected without signs of concurrent disease [93–96]. However, the pathogenicity of an AdV for reptiles was demonstrated in one case by an experimental transmission study [88]. In that study, a neonatal Boa constrictor was inoculated "

 

[Geckoflora]

Thank you for the link, that's a great read on it!

I'm a little confused though; the last two paragraphs of the adenovirus section seem to be saying that there are separate species-specific 'strains' of adenovirus? If I'm understanding that right? Does that mean it wouldn't have been possible to contract adenovirus from the sick bearded dragon, or am I understanding it wrong? It's a bit tough to understand it all.

The symptoms still sound similar to what's going on with Ramses, but I'm wondering if he must have contracted adenovirus from something else. I still can't be 100% sure about it and I have my fingers crossed that it's not adenovirus, but it's the only thing I could think of so far.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."there are separate species-specific 'strains' of adenovirus? If I'm understanding that right? Does that mean it wouldn't have been possible to contract adenovirus from the sick bearded dragon, or am I understanding it wrong? It's a bit tough to understand it all"...you are right that if the virus is truly species specific it shouldn't be able to be caught by your chameleon but I don't think it's been proven completely yet...they're still studying it I think.

 

[Geckoflora]

You said..."there are separate species-specific 'strains' of adenovirus? If I'm understanding that right? Does that mean it wouldn't have been possible to contract adenovirus from the sick bearded dragon, or am I understanding it wrong? It's a bit tough to understand it all"...you are right that if the virus is truly species specific it shouldn't be able to be caught by your chameleon but I don't think it's been proven completely yet...they're still studying it I think.

Okay, that makes sense!

The vet called me a few hours ago and let me know that there weren't any more big results from the blood work, so their best guess is a bacterial infection. I did ask about adenovirus but she doesn't think that he's got it since it's not common in chameleons, so I'm glad! I don't think I can rule it out completely since there's a lot of unknowns with it, but I'm more hopeful now.

Ramses still isn't eating/drinking but he is fighting back a little more when I try to medicate/water him, which I suppose is a good sign! He's still pretty lethargic and inactive, and still closes his eyes often during the day. I'll be picking up some critical care tomorrow to help with feeding and hydration. I'm misting him more often as well.

Do you think it would be too stressful to shower him for a bit in warm water as well? I'm sure he's already pretty stressed being sick and having me manhandling him all the time to medicate/water him, so I don't want to cause him any extra stress. I've showered him previously and he never seemed to be a big fan, but that was also when he had his usual energy and was scrambling around during it. Just want to make sure he's not dehydrating too much.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I'm not really sure how much I should be giving him at once so I've only given small amounts so far"...
This might help with that...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/02NovDonoghue.html
"The charts give "calories per day". A useful approximation is that 1 (one) ml (cc) of water is needed for every calorie. If your chameleon needs, for example, 8 calories daily, it will be drinking about 8 ml daily. Another way to estimate water intake is to use an empirical equation of 10 to 30 ml/kg body weight".....
http://www.chameleonnews.com/02MarDonoghue.html

 

[Geckoflora]

Thanks, super helpful links!! I've increased his water intake to make sure.

I actually picked up some carnivore critical care for him as well to make sure he's getting enough food as well, so hopefully he'll start regaining some strength. Aside from fighting back a bit more when I try to medicate him and give food/water, he hasn't really seemed to get any better or worse so far. I'm hoping he'll start showing interest in food again soon at least; he's usually a big eater and gobbles up crickets and hornworms whenever offered.

I'll update the thread again if there are any changes in his activity! Hoping for the best right now.

 

[kinyonga]

Fingers crossed that he perks up soon.

 

[Geckoflora]

Little bit of an update.

Ramses is still hanging in there, he hasn't really improved at all but hasn't seemed to get worse, either. I did shower him around the time of my last post and he actually seemed to enjoy it- perked up a bit and just sat on my hand in the edge of the mist, looked like he was drinking a bit.

Decided to post today though because he actually pooped this morning. His urate was a little orange (I'm still hydrating him with the syringe as he doesn't want to drink on his own much) and the poop itself was very light/tan colored. He's been getting almost nothing but the carnivore critical care, though, so I'm figuring the light color is due to the color of the critical care maybe? I have force fed a few crickets; he eats them if I put this halfway in his mouth first. But it's mostly been critical care.

More concerning, I think he may have vomited. I checked on him this morning and saw the poop, but the most recent time I checked on him I saw what looks like vomit on one of the pothos leaves. It's possible I missed it the first time or it's also poop, but it looks more like vomit to me, plus it's not very close to where the rest of the poop is. I could try posting a picture if anyone wants to see for themselves.

Could it just be the critical care diet upsetting his stomach, or is it likely that something else is going on? He's due to be fed today but I'm holding off for now; his vet is due to call me back sometime today and I plan to ask about it then.

 

[kinyonga]

I hope the vet can help. I wouldn't be able to tell if it's vomit or diarrhea...sorry.
Glad you posted.
Good luck with the vet.

 

[Geckoflora]

Update on Ramses for anyone who is interested- he's doing much better!

I never ended up taking him back to the vet for a re-check because within a few days of my last post he began to suddenly improve. I'm not sure what did it; perhaps taking the daily medication was causing some lethargy or other side effects?

I still plan to take him back to the vet eventually but I didn't want to take him right away, partially because I was worried all the stress would cause him to revert back to not eating/drinking and partially because its been very cold where I live.

He suddenly wanted to drink again when offered and then went back to eating a few days after. He still isn't quite as interested as usual (he used to practically fall through his cage in his rush to get to the crickets) but he is eating everything I put in there! At first I was worried he was having problems with his tongue, as he didn't seem able to 'shoot' his tongue out to take crickets from my hand, but I watched him grab a cricket halfway across his cage yesterday so I know he's alright.

Thanks again to the couple of you that offered help!! I really appreciate it. Hopefully Ramses stays healthy from now on. I still don't know for sure what the problem was or if he's 100% better on the inside, but this is more than I could have hoped for a month ago. Keeping my hopes up!