Louie is acting STRANGE
- Thread starter celseymarie
- Start date
KellyRose12
Established Member
I’m pretty sure gout effects the limbs in a way that they can’t grip onto things because it is too painful. They would still be able to climb
With MBD you will see the bowing of arms and legs and deformations in the
casque
The fact that you’ve only given him calcium with d3 and don’t have a sufficient uvb fixture to help him synthesize the d3, there are issues.
And other issues because he doesn’t have a stable regular calcium intake.
all points to MBD.
celseymarie
Member
Thank you so much, it is soooo appreciated. I just purchased the new lighting and supplements provided to me through this thread. I plan to return back to the vet tomorrow, hoping they'll make an appointment with me when I call bright and early.
Hello!! So I just recently noticed on December 28th that my chameleon acting very strange in his larger enclosure (him hanging off of the vine at the top of the cage, holding on by his front two legs and letting his back legs hang, choosing to be in the dirt mid cage and then at the bottom of the cage). I moved him to a smaller enclosure in order to keep up with his behavior better. The move to a smaller cage is a good idea.
first of all, I'm NOt a vet and only speak from whati have experienced or learned from others experience, etc.
Here are his current symptoms: will not eat or drink voluntarily, will not climb, stays in dirt of the enclosure. His grip is very strong on all four legs and tail. Thus could be happening for more than one reason...if he has MBD or is sick with something else he might act like this. I think he has MBD but I need to see photos from the side (not from above) to have a better idea of whether it's MBD or not.
I was able to force feed him ONE mealworm on the 2nd and 3rd. I’ve been giving him pedialyte/water/calcium powder soaks for 30 minutes the passed few days. I don't agree with soaking a chameleon in things like pedialyte or calcium...in fact unless there is a specific illness that requires a soak, I don't think it should be done at al...just my opinion.
Every time he gets frustrated with me and open his mouth, I sneak drops of water in there to try even harder to keep him hydrated. I also spray the cage very often to keep him hydrated. it's ok to ease a drop of water in when the mouth is open, but it needs to be done carefully...one drop at a time and far enough back in the mouth that it doesn't go into the lungs. Don't spray any water on his face or near his mouth. Spray it on plants.
I turned to calcium SPRAY as of today for the insects (mealworms and crickets) because the calcium powder, I found, was killing them quicker. After the vet today, I tried feeding him smaller sized mealworms of which he just pushed out of his mouth with his tongue. This could be an indication of him being sick or could be his digestive system slowing down from muscle weakening due to MBD.
I took him to the vet today and they treated him for a parasite. Did they test for parasites or just assume he has one?
They gave him antibiotics and medicine to treat a parasite. I asked a bunch of questions regarding my UVB light, gout, and mbd but he completely disregarded it all and said he’s so strong, it doesn’t appear to be those things. I’m afraid he’s been misdiagnosed. I don’t know what to do anymore, please help!! I don’t want him to suffer and I’m just hoping it isn’t too late. Grip is often strong when a chameleon has MBD...but a vet should be able to see some signs of the MBD just by looking at him and checking bone/jaw strength.
Attached is a photo of him right now at 6:20 pm. I have photos of him from throughout this entire thing if needed. I need to see photos from the side of both sides so I can see the legs, etc.
first of all, I'm NOt a vet and only speak from whati have experienced or learned from others experience, etc.
Here are his current symptoms: will not eat or drink voluntarily, will not climb, stays in dirt of the enclosure. His grip is very strong on all four legs and tail. Thus could be happening for more than one reason...if he has MBD or is sick with something else he might act like this. I think he has MBD but I need to see photos from the side (not from above) to have a better idea of whether it's MBD or not.
I was able to force feed him ONE mealworm on the 2nd and 3rd. I’ve been giving him pedialyte/water/calcium powder soaks for 30 minutes the passed few days. I don't agree with soaking a chameleon in things like pedialyte or calcium...in fact unless there is a specific illness that requires a soak, I don't think it should be done at al...just my opinion.
Every time he gets frustrated with me and open his mouth, I sneak drops of water in there to try even harder to keep him hydrated. I also spray the cage very often to keep him hydrated. it's ok to ease a drop of water in when the mouth is open, but it needs to be done carefully...one drop at a time and far enough back in the mouth that it doesn't go into the lungs. Don't spray any water on his face or near his mouth. Spray it on plants.
I turned to calcium SPRAY as of today for the insects (mealworms and crickets) because the calcium powder, I found, was killing them quicker. After the vet today, I tried feeding him smaller sized mealworms of which he just pushed out of his mouth with his tongue. This could be an indication of him being sick or could be his digestive system slowing down from muscle weakening due to MBD.
I took him to the vet today and they treated him for a parasite. Did they test for parasites or just assume he has one?
They gave him antibiotics and medicine to treat a parasite. I asked a bunch of questions regarding my UVB light, gout, and mbd but he completely disregarded it all and said he’s so strong, it doesn’t appear to be those things. I’m afraid he’s been misdiagnosed. I don’t know what to do anymore, please help!! I don’t want him to suffer and I’m just hoping it isn’t too late. Grip is often strong when a chameleon has MBD...but a vet should be able to see some signs of the MBD just by looking at him and checking bone/jaw strength.
Attached is a photo of him right now at 6:20 pm. I have photos of him from throughout this entire thing if needed. I need to see photos from the side of both sides so I can see the legs, etc.
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celseymarie
Member
They just assumed he had a parasite. Said they got a small sample for a smear but it wasn't enough and that if I could get a stool sample, to bring it in.
celseymarie
Member
Will these work better
Attachments
KellyRose12
Established Member
How long has he been closing his eyes for?
celseymarie
Member
From what I've noticed, he only closes them when asleep. During the day, he is usually awake and moving around/looking around etc.
KellyRose12
Established Member
Do you have recent photos of him when he’s awake and moving?
celseymarie
Member
in box is from today’s vet visit and the other three are from yesterday
Attachments
Thank you guys so much. As I stated above, I brought him to the vet today and the vet treated him for a parasite and completely avoided the entire idea of having mbd which after researching through here and on google, I thought was an immediate misdiagnosis. When I purchased my chameleon I was honestly never properly educated on other vitamins, but calcium was extremely stressed. Do you think he is in severe shape? I don't want him to suffer. Providing more pictures in my next post.
Chameleon Info:
Cage Info:
Current Problem - him possibly having mbd
When a chameleon has MBD, the calcium, D3, vitamin A and phos have to be brought back in line ASAP. Any damage already done (broken bones and deformities) will not be fixed by the treatment but further damage will be prevented. The chameleon will need liquid calcium, proper supplementing, proper UVB lighting and temperatures to get the nutrients back in line and strengthen the bones and muscles and correct other things that are affected by the MBD too,
MBD can cause muscle weakness (which results in egg laying issues in females, digestive issues, constipation, etc in adition to bones that break so easily....so you can see why a chameleon has the symptoms it has if it has MBD.
Once the nutrients are in balance and the bones are strong again, you just have to have good husbandry and the MBD should not return.
Chameleon Info:
- Your Chameleon - veiled chameleon, male, possible 1 year old. I have had him for 8 months.
- Handling - MAYBE twice a month. A lot more often lately due to soaking him and trying to force feed him.
- Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? I am feeding him crickets and mealworms, 2-3. once in the morning and once in the evening. I put sweet potatoes and kale in with the crickets. I would add dandelion greens, collards, squash, sweet red peppers, zucchini, and a small amount of apples, pears, berries, etc.
- Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? I do not use specific vitamins. I have used calcium powder (repticalcium) and just bought the calcium spray today from PetSense in hopes to be able to drop a few drops in his mouth when possible. What is in the calcium spray? It's recommended that twice a month you dust the insects with a phos free calcium/D3 powder lightly just before feeding them to the chameleon. Twice a month on two other days dust lightly with a vitamin powder (no D3) and at the remaining feedings dust with a phos free calcium powder. This is a maintenance schedule. For chameleons with MBD, additional calcium is needed. I'll explain it later...remind me if I forget.
- Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? I give him water through a straw, drop drops in front of him and he engages. misting about 3 times a day, I do not see him drinking other than when I use the straw with him.
- Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? stool from a couple days ago was yellowish, white, and then normal moist brown. has never tested for parasites. He might be slightly dehydrated depending on how orangish the urates are.
- History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I bought him from PetSmart.
Cage Info:
- Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? I had him in a screened cage. It is about 5ft tall and 3-4ft wide. I now have him in a smaller glass terrarium from PetSmart.
- Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? I use two 100w red night lights ZOO-MED at night and one ZOO-MED Reptisun 5.0 UVB light and 100w blue light during the day in his bigger cage. I currently use one 100w night light ZOO-MED in the smaller cage at night and the other two ZOO-MED Reptisun 5.0 UVB light and now a 75w blue light. @Beman has better information on the lights and explains it better than I do...so I'll let her answer.
- Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? 70-80 degrees, a hydro-thermo monitor came with the first terrarium.
- Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? humidity from 50-70, a hydro-thermo monitor came with the first terrarium.
- Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? I am using live ivy plants from Home Depot and fake leafy plants from PetSmart. I would ditch any fake plants. Not sure if the Ivy is ok. Pothos is a good choice as well as hibiscus, and any others on the lists that @MissSkittles could link you too. Oops...@AmandaS has already linked to these.
- Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Cage is located in the corner of my bedroom, fan being on never effected the temperature.
- Location - Where are you geographically located? I am located in Picayune, MS.
Current Problem - him possibly having mbd
When a chameleon has MBD, the calcium, D3, vitamin A and phos have to be brought back in line ASAP. Any damage already done (broken bones and deformities) will not be fixed by the treatment but further damage will be prevented. The chameleon will need liquid calcium, proper supplementing, proper UVB lighting and temperatures to get the nutrients back in line and strengthen the bones and muscles and correct other things that are affected by the MBD too,
MBD can cause muscle weakness (which results in egg laying issues in females, digestive issues, constipation, etc in adition to bones that break so easily....so you can see why a chameleon has the symptoms it has if it has MBD.
Once the nutrients are in balance and the bones are strong again, you just have to have good husbandry and the MBD should not return.
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KellyRose12
Established Member
Does he open his mouth and breathe for long moments at a time? Or puff up under his chin and make a popping noise? I’m wondering if the vet gave him antibiotics to treat a respiratory infection.
im only asking because in the pictures it kind of looks like it. Unless he was just mad at you
it looks like he’s pointing his head up in the air too.
celseymarie
Member
No, he usually only opens his mouth when I get too close or grabby with him! Vet didn't discuss respiratory infection with me, I'm unsure.
These are all pictures during the time he's going through all this sickness so he's extra temperamental with me lately.
AmandaS
Retired Moderator
So you think it is MBD?
KellyRose12
Established Member
Okay. Just making sure.
I'm concerned about the right arm/foot...looks swollen...might be an infection going on? I'm not a vet and can be sure.
Regarding supplements....
D3 can build up in the system and lead to overdoses and health issues so we only use it twice a month and let the chameleon produce the rest of the D3 it needs from its exposure to the UVB.
Vitamin A from prEformed (retinol, meat/insect) sources can build up too so you have to be careful with it. Vitamin A from prOformed sources (carotenes, plant sources) won't build up because the body converts it as needed....but it's not known for sure if chameleons can convert it or not....so some people use a vitamin powder with prEformed in it. In addition, vitamin A and D3 are somewhat antagonistic to each other and need to be in balance. D3 is needed to absorb the calcium. Too much calcium without enough D3 will build up and cause problems too...but it takes a lot of calcium to have that happen I think.
Regarding supplements....
D3 can build up in the system and lead to overdoses and health issues so we only use it twice a month and let the chameleon produce the rest of the D3 it needs from its exposure to the UVB.
Vitamin A from prEformed (retinol, meat/insect) sources can build up too so you have to be careful with it. Vitamin A from prOformed sources (carotenes, plant sources) won't build up because the body converts it as needed....but it's not known for sure if chameleons can convert it or not....so some people use a vitamin powder with prEformed in it. In addition, vitamin A and D3 are somewhat antagonistic to each other and need to be in balance. D3 is needed to absorb the calcium. Too much calcium without enough D3 will build up and cause problems too...but it takes a lot of calcium to have that happen I think.
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Yup....and maybe more.
