Male Panther with Gular Edema or Neck Swelling...

[kinyonga]

First of all...I'm not a vet...what I am saying comes from my own experience, from what I have read and what others (including vets) have told me.

The reason I mentioned the x-ray is because overdoing the D3 can affect the bone health.

If this is the Mazuri diet you are giving him, it contains D3 and prEformed vitamin A...so your nutrients may still not be in balance...
http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5MK8-5MM3.pdf

 

[AsiaKauffman]

I see you live in SD. Have you tried putting him outside during the day? I had a Adult male Jackson that I kept outside pretty much year round. After moving him inside he developed edema. I moved him back outside and it seemed to help. I try to keep all my Chams outside when temps at night are consistently over 50 at night.

I've put him outside when its 70 or higher, but this past week it has been cool and we live in a condo by the Harbor and if you step outside its super windy, but I may just have to put him out if the real sun will help him more!

Thanks!

 

[AsiaKauffman]

First of all...I'm not a vet...what I am saying comes from my own experience, from what I have read and what others (including vets) have told me.

The reason I mentioned the x-ray is because overdoing the D3 can affect the bone health.

If this is the Mazuri diet you are giving him, it contains D3 and prEformed vitamin A...so your nutrients may still not be in balance...
http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5MK8-5MM3.pdf

Thank you for your knowledge and experience, that really helps! I think it is the Mazuri diet food. My package is just green with the name Mazuri and it's registered with a R next to the name, but the only thing is has on it is the directions and doesn't really say whats in it! I'm going to call the vet this morning and I really appreciate your help!!!!

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I would stop all supplementing until the problem stops recurring. I have a wc mitsio that had a huge gular edema when I received him. I basically stopped supplementation except occas calcium only dust about 1 x per week. After 4-5 months the edema is gone. You can still see he has a little loose skin in his neck from the edema stretching his skin out. But it hasnt come back and its been 4 months since he stopped showing signs. He was also bloated like your guy is now. All those symptoms are gone.

Dont give him any pinkies anymore. Contact Steve Sims on the forum he sells Cricket Crack. Its a very well balanced dry gutload. I dont recommend anything but his product. I started using it over a year ago and I saw immediate results in my animals and my feeders. Your animals health is only as good as his feeders being fed to him. If they arent fed properly he wont get the nutrients he needs to thrive. Jmo-but i wouldnt give him anything but reg calcium and I would cut that back to no more than 2x a week tops. Dust very lightly dont coat your feeders. And get him out in that Cali sunshine as often as possible. His skin looked really dry in those pics how much and how often does he get misted? He needs a min of 3x a day just becuase he may retain water dont cut back on his misting and drinking oppurtunities.

You can get him back on the right track but its going to take time and dedication to get him back in prime condition. If you want to offer additional feeders other than crickets. Get him some silkworms, hornworms, dubia roaches or blue bottle flies. Just stay away from the pickies, they have way too much fat and offer very little in the form of calcium. They can actually cause gout. Which can cause swelling of the joints which could be why his legs look swollen. Combine the pinky with the Mizuri and youve got a bad combo Imo....

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Ok, so i called the vet and here is my sum up.

Mazuri has d3 in it! , Linus us also taking an oral calcium (Neo-Calcium Syrup) every morning and i dust the food every day with a Calcium without D3.
Vet doesn't feel this is overdoing it.

When Linus eats a pinky, his neck the next day seems to be skinniest it ever gets. But I am only allowed to give him pinkies 2-3 times per week.

La Faber Nutritional Support is the tube feeding food in the morning I administer. Enough to fill his tummy, so no need for food in the morning.

D3 is a fat soluble vitamin.

The vet is treating Linus for a "Fatty Liver" (which can be reversed).
Ususally take 6-8 weeks to see results.
Treatment for Fatty Liver: Crickets and Pinky to help with nutrients.

Vet mentioned doing a Labrascope (costing $ 666-912) to go in surgically and cut some liver to have it biopsied to see if it really is a fatty liver.

* If it is a fatty liver then we would be doing the same treatment. So why spend $1000 and possibly loose my chameleon to anesthesia?

So really the vet doesn't know what the gular edema is from except he thinks its from a fatty liver. ( I noticed it after 7 days of calcium with d3 dusting food (in Jan), but he doesn't think it would stay in his system for months).

I'm just going to wait it out and do a recheck in 2 weeks. Un necessary surgeries aren't fun and cost a ton and I want to help, but I want to do it naturally if possible. Medicines and shots are one thing, and natural lighting/food, but I've learned if its not ment to be I can always get another lizard for the vet bill price. But I want him to not be in pain and learn as much as I can from him, so I don't make the same mistakes.

 

[bigcappa]

Thanks for the update and good luck with the little guy! Keep us updated!

 

[AsiaKauffman]

I have a question for everyone......

What kind of bugs will help in (D3) fat soluble vitamin absorption?

If Linus has to much d3 in his system, then can bugs help absorb it?

In natural sun chameleons make their own d3, will he not make any if there is too much in his system and will the sun just help?

Will d3 just stay in a chameleon?

Any info will help and thank you again for helping me become more knowledgeable for my little guys!

 

[Carlton]

Ok, so i called the vet and here is my sum up.

Mazuri has d3 in it! , Linus us also taking an oral calcium (Neo-Calcium Syrup) every morning and i dust the food every day with a Calcium without D3.
Vet doesn't feel this is overdoing it.

When Linus eats a pinky, his neck the next day seems to be skinniest it ever gets. But I am only allowed to give him pinkies 2-3 times per week.

La Faber Nutritional Support is the tube feeding food in the morning I administer. Enough to fill his tummy, so no need for food in the morning.

D3 is a fat soluble vitamin.

The vet is treating Linus for a "Fatty Liver" (which can be reversed).
Ususally take 6-8 weeks to see results.
Treatment for Fatty Liver: Crickets and Pinky to help with nutrients.

Vet mentioned doing a Labrascope (costing $ 666-912) to go in surgically and cut some liver to have it biopsied to see if it really is a fatty liver.

* If it is a fatty liver then we would be doing the same treatment. So why spend $1000 and possibly loose my chameleon to anesthesia?

So really the vet doesn't know what the gular edema is from except he thinks its from a fatty liver. ( I noticed it after 7 days of calcium with d3 dusting food (in Jan), but he doesn't think it would stay in his system for months).

I'm just going to wait it out and do a recheck in 2 weeks. Un necessary surgeries aren't fun and cost a ton and I want to help, but I want to do it naturally if possible. Medicines and shots are one thing, and natural lighting/food, but I've learned if its not ment to be I can always get another lizard for the vet bill price. But I want him to not be in pain and learn as much as I can from him, so I don't make the same mistakes.

I don't understand why the vet is treating "fatty liver" disease with pinkies! We just had this discussion on another thread...pinkies are high in fat and protein...and a diet too high in pinkies could create a fatty liver. Confused.

My rather late impression here is to go back to a very simplified basic diet...feeder insects gutloaded with fresh dark leafy greens, fresh fruit, a simple fortifed cereal grain such as Total. Supplement dusting very sparingly with plain calcium NO D3 until you see improvement. Get him outdoors as much as possible. Hydrate hydrate hydrate to help kidneys do their filtering job more easily. Don't add anything. Let his system settle a while without complicating additives and see how he does.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Thats why I told them to go with Crick Crack gutloaded feeders and get off the pinkies immed in my post. Over supplementation is just as toxic to a chams system as no supplements and in some cases worse. Gout can be very painful for a chameleon and feeding a high protein diet is a good way to give that cham gout. I personally wouldnt feed any of chams 2-3 pinkies a YEAR much less that many a week.

OP if you dont trust the advice being given by exp'd keepers why dont you contact a vet that has considerable exp treating chameleons. A cpl of good vets to consult would be Dr Ivan Alfonso or Dr. Greek. Both know their stuff.
Frankly, I'd ask where your vet is getting pinkies as a treatment for fatty liver disease? Did he read that in a medical journal? An article? Or is this his own method of treatment? Does this vet own chameleons? Is he even a member in the local herp society? Because if he doesnt keep or belong to a reptile society then he/she isnt experienced enough to treat specialized exotic lizards like chams. Go elsewhere.....

 

[pantherlover]

The mazuri diet and d3 every day is way too much d3. It is very potent. They claim that within six days the cal/phos ratio within crickets is reversed on this diet. The fact that it contains preformed a and d3 in a reasonable ratio and a well rounded amount of nutrients, suggests that supplementing with a multivitamin is not needed at all. Too much d3 throws off everything just as too much of anything would. Too much d3 prevents calcium and vitamin a from doing their jobs. As I and TPM have both said, lose the dust all together for the time being and see if the water retention dissipates. As Kinyonga stated, an x ray is probably a good idea to make sure the bones arent damaged already.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I too would be very skeptical of the advice you were given. It sounds like way overkill for a questionable diagnosis to begin with imo. Might try getting a second opinion.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I too would be very skeptical of the advice you were given. It sounds like way overkill for a questionable diagnosis to begin with imo. Might try getting a second opinion.

I'm with you on this one. Consult with another vet that has considerable exp WITH CHAMELEONS. Just because the vet treats reptiles doesnt mean he/she knows a damn thing about chams.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

I don't understand why the vet is treating "fatty liver" disease with pinkies! We just had this discussion on another thread...pinkies are high in fat and protein...and a diet too high in pinkies could create a fatty liver. Confused.

My rather late impression here is to go back to a very simplified basic diet...feeder insects gutloaded with fresh dark leafy greens, fresh fruit, a simple fortifed cereal grain such as Total. Supplement dusting very sparingly with plain calcium NO D3 until you see improvement. Get him outdoors as much as possible. Hydrate hydrate hydrate to help kidneys do their filtering job more easily. Don't add anything. Let his system settle a while without complicating additives and see how he does.

I know I came across that thread too! I am under the impression the vet wants me to feed any and all things to get a diverse diet, then the pinkies are supposed to help him get back to his normal weight?

I like your take on SIMPLICITY! I like this. I am going to get him outside more this week since natural sun should be the best thing. i get him in a luke warm shower with high humidity for 30 mins 2 times a day.

I like that you can gutload with Total. I didn't know this. and I told the vet about vegggies for the bugs and he said not to, to use Mazuri. That stuff has d3 in it I found out today!!! If you give bugs Mazuri and veggies, they won't eat the Mazuri, only the veggies.

I gave him kale/collard greens and spinach juice a few weeks ago and he was more peppy than usual. I don't know how much it helped, he didn't look much better, but he sure looked more energetic and it didn't kill him to straight up drink veggie juice. He loved it really! Kept asking for more.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

and I told the vet about vegggies for the bugs and he said not to, to use Mazuri.

That right there is enough evidence to totally discredit anything this vet says in my opinion!!! He does not know what he's talking about!
Edit: saw your other post about Dr. Boyer's credentials and he does in fact know what he's talking about with that kind of background and his board certification in reptiles. But again, maybe not specific to chameleons. Still seems odd with some of the advice he gave...

If you'd like to use veggie juice (which by all means is probably a great idea!) offering a variety of the most nutritious greens is the best. Kale and spinach are high in oxalates, which bind up calcium and interfere with its absorption. They're fine to use occasionally but if as staples you should use dandelions (pesticide free), escarole, turnip greens, mustard greens, and watercress in addition to collard greens. Variety in nutrition is a very good thing when they are nutritious foods of the best variety! The link in my signature has good info for other choices to use, or avoid. I agree with the minimal approach until he at least stabilizes and then maybe a new vet and new treatments can be tried if it's not working. They do everything slowly, including healing, so it will take some time.

Btw, dandelion root has hepatoprotective effects (good for liver) so if you want to grind some of that up into the juice it couldn't hurt!

 

[AsiaKauffman]

I would stop all supplementing until the problem stops recurring. I have a wc mitsio that had a huge gular edema when I received him. I basically stopped supplementation except occas calcium only dust about 1 x per week. After 4-5 months the edema is gone. You can still see he has a little loose skin in his neck from the edema stretching his skin out. But it hasnt come back and its been 4 months since he stopped showing signs. He was also bloated like your guy is now. All those symptoms are gone.

Dont give him any pinkies anymore. Contact Steve Sims on the forum he sells Cricket Crack. Its a very well balanced dry gutload. I dont recommend anything but his product. I started using it over a year ago and I saw immediate results in my animals and my feeders. Your animals health is only as good as his feeders being fed to him. If they arent fed properly he wont get the nutrients he needs to thrive. Jmo-but i wouldnt give him anything but reg calcium and I would cut that back to no more than 2x a week tops. Dust very lightly dont coat your feeders. And get him out in that Cali sunshine as often as possible. His skin looked really dry in those pics how much and how often does he get misted? He needs a min of 3x a day just becuase he may retain water dont cut back on his misting and drinking oppurtunities.

You can get him back on the right track but its going to take time and dedication to get him back in prime condition. If you want to offer additional feeders other than crickets. Get him some silkworms, hornworms, dubia roaches or blue bottle flies. Just stay away from the pickies, they have way too much fat and offer very little in the form of calcium. They can actually cause gout. Which can cause swelling of the joints which could be why his legs look swollen. Combine the pinky with the Mizuri and youve got a bad combo Imo....

Thank you soooooo much! I feel he has had dry skin or skin problems for 6 months now. I get him in the shower for 3o mins 2xs a day and he drinks and loves being in the water! I have cricket crack i bought before i moved out here. I will get it back out. I stopped all supplementation when this occurred and now i am wondering if we are over supplementing now? calcium syrup in the morning, the a powder tube feed too with calcium in it, and the Mazuri has it too, then dusting the food everyday with calcium. I am wondering if its making his neck stay swollen.???

When I was giving juice ( kale/spinach/collard greens) he drank it willingly, loved it, seemed peppier and neck i feel was about the same but we stopped the calcium, but I do feel simple is the key and i heard under supplementing is better than over supplementing.

I have the time and dedication and I want to see him make it though this and not be in pain and i take a valuable lesson with me from all of this. Thank you again for all your help and it is nice to know someone who had this as bad as me and he made it!!!

 

[AsiaKauffman]

The mazuri diet and d3 every day is way too much d3. It is very potent. They claim that within six days the cal/phos ratio within crickets is reversed on this diet. The fact that it contains preformed a and d3 in a reasonable ratio and a well rounded amount of nutrients, suggests that supplementing with a multivitamin is not needed at all. Too much d3 throws off everything just as too much of anything would. Too much d3 prevents calcium and vitamin a from doing their jobs. As I and TPM have both said, lose the dust all together for the time being and see if the water retention dissipates. As Kinyonga stated, an x ray is probably a good idea to make sure the bones arent damaged already.

Thank you! I didn't know all of this and it makes sense. When he got this in the first place I stopped everything because i didn't want him to die from over supplementing. Now i wonder if the vet is trying, but since we don't know what is really going on with Linus its him guessing about Fatty liver when it may just be us giving him to much supplements again and too many pinkies.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

I'm with you on this one. Consult with another vet that has considerable exp WITH CHAMELEONS. Just because the vet treats reptiles doesnt mean he/she knows a damn thing about chams.

I know!!! Every vet I have worked with seems to help, but no real knowledge about chameleons specifically. I wish there were more chameleon specialists out there.

If i can do it, i want to go to school learn, get my degree but specialize in chameleons, learn from my chameleons, my chameleon rescue, go to Africa and see their natural habitats, and others with chameleons and just 24/7 chameleons. i know school isn't going to tell much on chameleons, but i know it will help me understand how things work and figure out how to make my own chameleon medical books and help chameleon "to be" owners get to understand their chameleons better and help chameleons all together live longer, happier lives. Get the RIGHT information first time around so no real mistakes will be made if they listen.

 

[kinyonga]

Fatty liver...
http://www.phoenixherp.com/joomla/images/phoenixherp/PDFs/obesity.pdf

 

[AsiaKauffman]

That right there is enough evidence to totally discredit anything this vet says in my opinion!!! He does not know what he's talking about!
Edit: saw your other post about Dr. Boyer's credentials and he does in fact know what he's talking about with that kind of background and his board certification in reptiles. But again, maybe not specific to chameleons. Still seems odd with some of the advice he gave...

If you'd like to use veggie juice (which by all means is probably a great idea!) offering a variety of the most nutritious greens is the best. Kale and spinach are high in oxalates, which bind up calcium and interfere with its absorption. They're fine to use occasionally but if as staples you should use dandelions (pesticide free), escarole, turnip greens, mustard greens, and watercress in addition to collard greens. Variety in nutrition is a very good thing when they are nutritious foods of the best variety! The link in my signature has good info for other choices to use, or avoid. I agree with the minimal approach until he at least stabilizes and then maybe a new vet and new treatments can be tried if it's not working. They do everything slowly, including healing, so it will take some time.

Btw, dandelion root has hepatoprotective effects (good for liver) so if you want to grind some of that up into the juice it couldn't hurt!

I went to medical massage school and i do feel that holistic is a natural good thing and should help more than kill you, but good to learn and know the propertie values of foods. I started researching the veggies, because 1. you should feed them to the bugs, but 2. if the lizard can eat the veggies, then if it doesnt hurt him, then i would think direct veggies and more of them into juice is better than a dozen crickets with half the veggies properties?. in my opinion.
The spinach/kale and collard greens i used to help him with anemia the 1st vet said my panther had and it did seem to help when i gave it to him and he loved it.
I used a orange and squeezed juice into the veggie juice because oranges help absorb iron into your system better, so i thought that should help the lizard even more. I think it did, but like you said, it takes a long time to get better, since they're cold blooded they take longer to heal than warm blooded animals.

Dandelion root sounds good too. I was wanting to look into other things to help give him directly. And the way you layed out the values was great. Thank you for your time and helping. I am really starting to feel i am helping my little guy.

 

[AsiaKauffman]

fatty liver...
http://www.phoenixherp.com/joomla/images/phoenixherp/pdfs/obesity.pdf

thank you for this information!!!!!!