Mass Breeding?

[veiledfan]

Over breeding

I read through all your post. I think it is wrong to constantly breed a female. You should allow them to have a more natural breeding schedule. The whole point of buying a animal that has these type of color changes is to provide them habitat that they can hide in and change. You do not just throw them into a aquarium. I believe it is the sellers responsibility to make sure they go to a good home. You would want to send your child to a daycare that you knew nothing about. I have seen what happens to a lot of these animals in pet store. I saw one the other day in a class contain where people could just come up and mess with it by tapping on the class. They are sensitive creatures and it broke my heart. Also selling to pet stores are not always a great idea. They are not always the best informed about the animals and the usually do not care if they die since they got them so cheap. These are not old junk you get rid of but life. Before you begin just selling off to make a profit or make it easier think about who you are giving them to. Everyone knows the cost it takes to breed and raise chameleons so do not give me the excuse that you needed room or do not have the money. Maybe you should think before you act.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I think it is wrong to constantly breed a female. You should allow them to have a more natural breeding schedule.

The natural breeding strategy of most chameleon species is to grow as quickly as possible so they can start breeding and then do so as many times as possible before they die. Their natural ability to do so is limited by seasonal climate cycles, which result in sub-optimum rainfall, temperatures and food availability so that it is not conducive to reproduction investment. In captivity we artificially attempt to maintain an optimum condition for our animals in terms of their access to water, appropriate temperatures and food. In doing so we put their natural breeding strategy at odds with the long term survival of the female. If you want to preach about a more natural breeding schedule, you should really be preaching about cycling food access, temperatures and water throughout the year so that they are only able to make the reproductive investment once or twice in a year rather then continuously. That's the natural way.

Also selling to pet stores are not always a great idea. They are not always the best informed about the animals and the usually do not care if they die since they got them so cheap. [...] Before you begin just selling off to make a profit or make it easier think about who you are giving them to. [...] Maybe you should think before you act.

So what is your plan to fill the demand for chameleons from pet stores in a better way? As I've already mentioned, as long as it is legal for pet stores to sell them, the pet stores are always going to have a demand for chameleons. Their options are purchase captive bred chameleons from breeders or purchase cheap imports. In other words, they are going to rape the wild populations or take advantage of captive bred offspring. In the interest of limiting our negative impact on chameleon populations in the wild, I am for filling that demand with captive bred animals over wild caught animals and I think our efforts should go toward better education rather then attacking the breeders who are offsetting the demand on wild caught animals.

Chris

 

[Texas Panther Man]

As usual the problems lies in responsibility. There needs to be responsible parties buying these animals. Learning proper husbandry and care requirements. And the breeders need to only breed quality stock. Oh yeah and the pet stores need to learn that these animals are not just inventory that can be replaced with a quick order to the breeder.

 

[ChameleonAlley]

You make a good point Texas. Breeders should make it their responsibility that whoever they sell to is educated on how to take care of the animal. Every time I go to Petsmart, I see a veiled that has no UVB light and a water bowl. They're then passing this info down to the individual buyer. Not to mention Petsmart lists their temp requirements way to high for the animal. If the breeder demanded that the store kept the animals the right way and would not sell to the store without them doing so, this could help on all ends of sale of the animals.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

When I had a couple of clutches of eggs hatching at once. I talked to my local pet store because i didn't have enough room for 60 neonates. I gave them 4 chams to sell for me. I set the price of the animals and I provided the cage and the lights. They provided a place for the animals to be seen by the public. (Their Store) We split the sales price of the animals 50/50. They were only out the small price of crix while they were in their store. I gave them instructions to give the owners outlining care. I also provided my number for the buyers to cal me. And gave them the name and number to my local herp vet. Thats all i can do as a breeder to ensure my offspring make it and don't suffer. I did that many times and it has worked out great for me and my babies.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

If the breeder demanded that the store kept the animals the right way and would not sell to the store without them doing so, this could help on all ends of sale of the animals.

Maybe in the perfect world , I would like to move there sometime.

I disagree, Keepers should make it their responsibility to inform themselves and learn the proper care methods before purchasing an animal.

Why should it be up to the breeder? I hand out a care sheet with every animal I sell. With very useful information. I will also explain all they need to know. It is up to them at that point to choose to follow the directions or educate themselves to do it better. To be perfectly honest it is the buyers animal as soon as they pay for and receive it. It becomes their responsibility to "do the right thing."

It is up to the breeder to produce a healthy animal that has been well taken care of. Not to endanger the animal on its way to the consumer and provide recommendation on care. It is also at their discrepancy who they sell to. Most are not detectives or have the time to investigate every buyer they deal with.

Petsmart has a vet who tells them how to care for the animals. They do not listen to the consumer or the Breeder. They have something called corporate policy. That is because it is now petsmarts responsibility to care for the animal. Would you rather a breeder deny petsmart chameleons so they can get them from a source that does not provide as healthy of animals. Individual stores do not always take care of the animal properly, but I have seen petsmarts that do. At least they started with a healthy animal to begin with.

Most breeders are just like keepers with a lot more animals. It is a shame when the practice is called out in a general sense and deemed to be negative.

 

[Lindsey]

OK this is just strictly for my curiosity but where do all the captive bred chameleons for all the big petshops come from.

The first thing I thought of was a supplier who would purchase animals from a number of different breeders and distribute them to stores for a slightly higher price than what they paid for.

I disagree, Keepers should make it their responsibility to inform themselves and learn the proper care methods before purchasing an animal.

Why should it be up to the breeder? I hand out a care sheet with every animal I sell. With very useful information. I will also explain all they need to know. It is up to them at that point to choose to follow the directions or educate themselves to do it better. To be perfectly honest it is the buyers animal as soon as they pay for and receive it. It becomes their responsibility to "do the right thing."

I also agree with you completely. But people who walk into pet stores to buy animals are not usually herp keepers to begin with. Its alot of parents with a kid who wants a lizard for their birthday. They expect to be told everything they need to know to take care of the animal for the cheapest price possible and do not think its their responsibility to learn on their own. And if the animal gets sick, its the employee's fault for not telling them everything when they bought it. Very frustrating.

 

[Courtney]

here is a rough idea.....its possible to spay females....i think you should have to have a permit to breed the chams then you should be required to raise up the females have them spayed before resale....this creates a longer life span with less complications to the owner....then like dogs chams should come with papers stating their blood line. if they can prevent people from, owing certain species of snake unless the have a permit cant the same be done with chams....if joe public has to present a permit before purchasing a cham from anywhere i think the export would die down. i also beleave that a permit should be difficult to obtain...

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

here is a rough idea.....its possible to spay females....i think you should have to have a permit to breed the chams then you should be required to raise up the females have them spayed before resale....this creates a longer life span with less complications to the owner....then like dogs chams should come with papers stating their blood line. if they can prevent people from, owing certain species of snake unless the have a permit cant the same be done with chams....if joe public has to present a permit before purchasing a cham from anywhere i think the export would die down. i also beleave that a permit should be difficult to obtain...

That infringes on the rights of reptile keepers and imposes unneeded legislation and cost. In turn would shut down breeders and result in more imports as well as illegal breeding and shady practices to cover it. Imposes restriction on your rights as a hobbyist and keeper who does the right thing.

Lets think USARK.org not PETA...

 

[TylerStewart]

The infringes on the rights of reptile keepers and imposes unneeded legislation and cost. In turn would shut down breeders and result in more imports as well as illegal breeding and shady practices to cover it. Imposes restriction on your rights as a hobbyist and keeper who does the right thing.

Lets think USARK.org not PETA...

High Five. Just what we need is Obama coming over to check the balls on my male veiled.

if they can prevent people from, owing certain species of snake unless the have a permit cant the same be done with chams

The difference is, large snakes can potentially kill humans. While being a stupid argument, at least it is an argument. More people fall into aquariums and die in a year than are killed by large snakes in the US.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

The last thing we need is more gov in our lives! They can't even keep up with health care etc... for us! I'm with Ryan.

 

[Courtney]

what about the rights of the animals? Do we need to continue to support mass breeding and turn a blind eye? Doing so endangers the lives of the chams that are hatched every day. I think government sucks as well but just because the dont do right on our behalf doents mean we should prevent them from doing something for thoes who cant speak up.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

what about the rights of the animals? Do we need to continue to support mass breeding and turn a blind eye? Doing so endangers the lives of the chams that are hatched every day. I think government sucks as well but just because the dont do right on our behalf doents mean we should prevent them from doing something for thoes who cant speak up.

You can do the most by teaching anyone who will listen and ask them to do the same. Thats the answer. Not laws and regulations. It is the lack of information that causes harm to the animals not the number being bred.

It takes people like you who will not turn a blind eye to help. Information is the answer not control on breeding or government intervention..

 

[TylerStewart]

what about the rights of the animals?

Can you link us to a source that lists the "rights" that animals have? I'm all for keeping them humanely, but you guys gotta stop humanizing them.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Good posts by Xanthoman, Ryan, Tyler, Chris, etc. Great thread.

Personally I tried to stop breeding about a year ago but my females did not agree with me...

Thank you for the hearty laugh! Hope you don't mind I cut off the end of your statement

It shouldn't be the seller's responsibility to make sure they know how to care for the animal, it is the buyer's responsibility. The sad truth is that many seller's have to because within the mass of consumers there are many that are not responsible. Now you think that any seller that doesn't do a background check before selling a chameleon is wrong? That is ridiculous, large breeder's do not have the time to do a background check on everyone they sell to, and they shouldn't have to. Do not blame the people who sell the chameleons, blame the ignorant people who buy them without any knowledge of how to care for them.

We do feel it is our responsibility to select qualitifed buyers and so we interview them on the phone. There are a series of questions we ask. If we don't get the right answers we educate the buyer and have them contact us when they have their set up correct. If they challenge us about issues concerning types of lighting, temp, etc., we tell them OK, that's your choice, but we can't sell you a chameleon.

We are still uncomfortable selling chams at shows and so have not yet. What concerns us is the impulse buyer who doesn't even know what a Chameleon is, but sees a beautiful one at the show and buys it. But I'm not going to say we will never sell at shows. Just for now we are uncomfortable with it. But I will say that the chameleon sellers we observe at the shows such as Tiki Tiki Reptiles (and we work right along side them at Pomona when we sell our Reptaid) do walk their buyers through the whole husbandry process, show them exactly what to get and what to do with it, and offer to sell them whatever products they may need. This practice was further supported at the Pomona show by the SBCA giving several talks and demonstrations on proper chameleon care. You would be surprised to know just how long the people at Tiki Tiki spend with each and every buyer. There were times I saw buyers at their booth for a couple of hours.

 

[Jakedn]

Good posts by Xanthoman, Ryan, Tyler, Chris, etc. Great thread.



Thank you for the hearty laugh! Hope you don't mind I cut off the end of your statement




We do feel it is our responsibility to select qualitifed buyers and so we interview them on the phone. There are a series of questions we ask. If we don't get the right answers we educate the buyer and have them contact us when they have their set up correct. If they challenge us about issues concerning types of lighting, temp, etc., we tell them OK, that's your choice, but we can't sell you a chameleon.

We are still uncomfortable selling chams at shows and so have not yet. What concerns us is the impulse buyer who doesn't even know what a Chameleon is, but sees a beautiful one at the show and buys it. But I'm not going to say we will never sell at shows. Just for now we are uncomfortable with it. But I will say that the chameleon sellers we observe at the shows such as Tiki Tiki Reptiles (and we work right along side them at Pomona when we sell our Reptaid) do walk their buyers through the whole husbandry process, show them exactly what to get and what to do with it, and offer to sell them whatever products they may need. This practice was further supported at the Pomona show by the SBCA giving several talks and demonstrations on proper chameleon care. You would be surprised to know just how long the people at Tiki Tiki spend with each and every buyer. There were times I saw buyers at their booth for a couple of hours.

It is commendable that you and some other great companies take the time to work with the customers and even refuse to sell to them if they do not have the correct set up, but that does not mean it is your responsibility. It is the buyers responsibility to care for the chameleon once they purchase it and do their own research.

I think the company selling the chameleon should only have to correctly answer all questions when asked and if they want to be a bit more thorough hand out a care sheet. Anything more is commendable and welcome, but it just isn't the company's responsibility to do so.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Courtney,

I think we are all here because we believe that these animals should be cared for properly and want to see our own animals and our hobby do well. Unfortunately no matter what the situation you look at, there are going to be bad apples who don't give a rip and are going to make everyone else look bad. Laws are rarely successful at protecting individuals who would have done the right thing in the first place. Those who wouldn't do the right thing in the first place probably are not going to still and those who would have now face restrictions or bans that have really only taken away their ability to do it correctly. That isn't the answer.

I personally think there should be some form of intelligence test before people are allowed to reproduce but the problem with that is who is going to the one who decides who is and isn't allowed to, based on what criteria and who is going to pay for it? The same applies to attempting to permit keeping chameleons except the result of trying to get something like this implemented won't be a permitting system, it will be a ban and it won't just be chameleons that are then banned. Just because a few people are irresponsible doesn't mean that everyone else who is responsible should suffer.

Your idea about spaying chameleons really doesn't do anything effective, unfortunately. Requiring breeders to raise up their female chameleons to an age where spaying females was an option and then requiring them to have the surgery done prior to selling them would cost far too money, time and space for the breeder to bother. The result would be the breeder culling all females in his clutchs with the possible exception for two or three intended to replace their breeder females or that they might be able to sell to other breeders. So I ask, how does culling 50% of the offspring that a breeder produces solve the issue of chameleons being treated properly?

You also mentioned requiring that chameleons come with documentation and bloodline histories. To a certain degree this is already required since any international transport requires CITES documents. At a local level, however, encouraging bloodline documentation and tracking was attempted and it failed. At the time, the intent was not to be the chameleon police but simply to aid and facilitate in breeding programs and people still ran from the idea. Actually trying to be the chameleon police is a sure way to make sure any effort to promote ethical breeding practices fails.

Its all about education.

Chris

 

[eisentrauti]

I personally think there should be some form of intelligence test before people are allowed to reproduce but the problem with that is who is going to the one who decides who is and isn't allowed to, based on what criteria and who is going to pay for it?

The tests shouldn't be made before breeding, they should be made before people can buy animals. This would definitly made the "reptile market" smaller but it would help giving all other hobbyists much more credibility

 

[Chris Anderson]

The tests shouldn't be made before breeding, they should be made before people can buy animals. This would definitly made the "reptile market" smaller but it would help giving all other hobbyists much more credibility

Ha, I was referring to a test before two people could reproduce to have children themselves as a comparison to implementing a permit system to have animals. LOL, should have been more clear.

Chris

 

[yoza717]

I personally think there should be some form of intelligence test before people are allowed to reproduce but the problem with that is who is going to the one who decides who is and isn't allowed to, based on what criteria and who is going to pay for it?
Chris

The tests shouldn't be made before breeding, they should be made before people can buy animals. This would definitly made the "reptile market" smaller but it would help giving all other hobbyists much more credibility

LOL...I thought Chris meant that there should be an IQ test before the person is allowed to have babies....but that would make the internet less entertaining in the future