Mass Breeding?
- Thread starter jeanjacket812
- Start date
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Saw a lot in this thread that I thought was exceedingly uninformed, and then some good opinions as well.
Any use of the word "mill" with chameleons would be exceedingly uninformed in my view. While other animals may lend themselves to what we think of as a mill, as in a puppy mill, chameleons do not. If they did, they'd all be much cheaper. Eggs from poorly maintained females do not hatch. Females that die because of excessive breeding produce eggs that do not hatch, and a carcass. Hatchlings not properly cared for die or grow improperly. Customers that don't get healthy animals put suppliers-breeders out of business.
The greatest abuses, IMO, occur with importers and flippers. Not that all are bad, as that would be incorrect. But, in those situations, there is no need to maintain successful breeding and growth protocols, and i have seen abuse there.
I won't be back to debate. I have animals to tend to, money to count, etc.
Any use of the word "mill" with chameleons would be exceedingly uninformed in my view. While other animals may lend themselves to what we think of as a mill, as in a puppy mill, chameleons do not. If they did, they'd all be much cheaper. Eggs from poorly maintained females do not hatch. Females that die because of excessive breeding produce eggs that do not hatch, and a carcass. Hatchlings not properly cared for die or grow improperly. Customers that don't get healthy animals put suppliers-breeders out of business.
The greatest abuses, IMO, occur with importers and flippers. Not that all are bad, as that would be incorrect. But, in those situations, there is no need to maintain successful breeding and growth protocols, and i have seen abuse there.
I won't be back to debate. I have animals to tend to, money to count, etc.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
I know a a little about this topic because I've been a buyer from breeders, pet shops, wholesalers and importers, a mid-sized breeder, and I have sold groups of lizards out wholesale as well (bearded dragons mostly, but also some veileds back in the mid 90s).
Over the years I've also known a few people casually who I will not name drop, but I will say that I know generally what is going on behind the scenes with at least a few of the larger breeders in the country- not of chameleons (not sure who that would be- I don't know the names in the chameleon world as well as some of the rest of the lizard world) but some lizards and snakes...
The following are some of my opinions for whatever they are worth (maybe not much as this is pretty much an opinion thread).
* puppy mills type chameleon breeding-
I'm not sure the definition applies to lizards for a few reasons.
1st- they don't require socialization with humans to be healthy and happy. Puppy mills implies dogs that are left on their own without socialization.
2nd- I don't mean to step on toes here, but come on- most lizards don't have intelligence on par with a dog. Have you ever opened a lizard and looked inside? I have, many times for routine necropsy under veterinary supervision and/or advisement after my animals die (intended to improve husbandry over time). They have a very small brain. It is amazing to me that chameleons even have enough room in their brain to operate their incredible vision. One of the perks of having a simple mind is also having simple requirements for happiness. Don't get me wrong- I'm all for an interesting environment for the animal, but compared what a dog requires to keep it's brain stimulated- no comparison.
To keep this in perspective a little here- I have a son who has a pair of oscars (large aquarium fish). These fish swim to the front of the tank when he comes near the tank looking for a handout, and they actually jump up out of the water to grab pellets from his fingers when he holds pellets several inches above the water. Does anyone here have a chameleon that shows any more intelligence than these fish? If so, please tell me in what way do they demonstrate it? Courtship behavior and territorial behavior- I can point out aquarium fish that have both - many ciclids for example care for their eggs as parents together and guard their young. Both a step up from chameleon behavior in complexity. But for some reason, I don't see many people comparing fish farms to puppy mills...
That may not win me a lot of fans here- sorry about that, and please don't misinterpret what I just said.
I think chams are wonderful lizards and deserve a nice clean, roomy enclosure with plenty of light and foliage and a good misting system and kind and gentle care.
At the same time, I think sensationalism, romanticism and anthropomorphism are not good starting points for societal ethics. (oddly enough, I'm all for them being good starting points for personal ethics, but then again, I believe we should make a distinction between what is important for ourselves and what is important for society, they aren't necessarily the same)...
2nd - they don't breed so well for very long if a basic level of good husbandry is not given. "Puppy mill" conjures up cramped, filthy image with sickly animals. Reptiles simply will not breed more than a season if that when subjected to such treatment. Again- don't misunderstand- I am all for giving adequate room, but here again, we are talking about a cold blooded, 3 chambered heart animal vs a warm blooded animal that requires a lot of excersize to stay healthy and happy.
* Professional breeders are not involved on internet discussion boards because they will somehow reveal that their husbandry is not appropriate-
Having known some of these people, I don't believe that for a second. The reason they don't participate is because there are too many people with too little experience regurgitating stuff they have read with all the confidence of true experts, and these people often angrily shout down anyone who disagrees, resorting to personal attacks rather than sticking to the facts.
Many of these experts of regurgitation are very strongly opinionated, very militant and aggressive about their opinions, and love to argue and imply anyone who disagrees is somehow immoral. Even though they themselves have no experience to back up their own opinion.
(Case in point- the original poster is implying something by using the term "chameleon mills" without ever having visted a professional breeding facility to see if that is the case or not...)
It is a waste of time for breeders to have to deal with these sorts of people. And they *always* seem to pop up when a good pro pops up. I've been on the net from the early 90s when it was all text based - I remember web browsers coming online lol. I can remember a handful of pros whose names I think anyone here who knows reptiles would recognise come on and go silent not long after because these sorts of people got nasty- and it usually takes a very short time. It didn't take long for the lesson to be learned.
If things go badly with the loud angry minority even if they don't know what they are talking about, it can still cause significant loss of business from the majority and ruin everything for a breeder. Even if it doesn't go that badly, a lot of time and attention and energy and stress can be spent dealing with the idiots instead of with what is important...
Another reason- most of them are actually busy taking care of their animals and their business and don't have time or energy to log on and give advice to people who would basically mooching free info but who will never be grateful enough to purchase from the breeder who spent his money, blood, sweat, and tears to gain that knowledge and share it on a public forum. Like it or not, the majority shop price over reputation (which is sad). Good husbandry takes a lot of time and effort- participation in public forums on the internet costs both time and effort and as I have explained- very often for little in return.
Something some of you may or may not be surprised to learn is that the some of the most well known breeders of other lizards, are also some of the biggest suppliers to the wholesalers of those same lizards. They keep the very best for selling at shows and online, and the ones that don't make the quality cut (for things like color) end up being sold to the wholesalers who supply the pet shop trade for much, much less. This provides an outlet for their lower quality lizards.
A significant percentage of other breeders who supply the wholesalers are basement breeders. Part timers who either don't want to deal with the hassle of dealing with individuals, or people who dreamed of easy money and produce a clutch who then discover that it is much more time consuming, expensive, and difficult to raise and sell the young than they had believed.
For that matter, one fool in a basement who buys siblings at a show and who doesn't need to make money because it's his hobby can more easily become a "chameleon mill" than a professional who is trying to produce predictably year in and year out and is looking at the long term.
So when you walk into a pet shop, you never know what are going to get- something from a good breeder or a basement breeder who got lucky one time in spite of his husbandry. ..
Personally, I'm more inclined to be skeptical of the guy's husbandry who hasn't been producing large numbers year-in, year-out... The guy who produces large numbers is able to do so precisely because of his husbandry.
Thats not to say all like that are doing the best they can, or even all have great husbandry. But I certainly don't think it's fair to compare most of the ones who have been around for a while to puppy mills...
PS- I also don't mean to imply there aren't great people who produce excellent animals part time in their basement as a hobby! I know there are good and bad on both sides- I just think the original assertion that started the thread is a not fair assumption.
Over the years I've also known a few people casually who I will not name drop, but I will say that I know generally what is going on behind the scenes with at least a few of the larger breeders in the country- not of chameleons (not sure who that would be- I don't know the names in the chameleon world as well as some of the rest of the lizard world) but some lizards and snakes...
The following are some of my opinions for whatever they are worth (maybe not much as this is pretty much an opinion thread).
* puppy mills type chameleon breeding-
I'm not sure the definition applies to lizards for a few reasons.
1st- they don't require socialization with humans to be healthy and happy. Puppy mills implies dogs that are left on their own without socialization.
2nd- I don't mean to step on toes here, but come on- most lizards don't have intelligence on par with a dog. Have you ever opened a lizard and looked inside? I have, many times for routine necropsy under veterinary supervision and/or advisement after my animals die (intended to improve husbandry over time). They have a very small brain. It is amazing to me that chameleons even have enough room in their brain to operate their incredible vision. One of the perks of having a simple mind is also having simple requirements for happiness. Don't get me wrong- I'm all for an interesting environment for the animal, but compared what a dog requires to keep it's brain stimulated- no comparison.
To keep this in perspective a little here- I have a son who has a pair of oscars (large aquarium fish). These fish swim to the front of the tank when he comes near the tank looking for a handout, and they actually jump up out of the water to grab pellets from his fingers when he holds pellets several inches above the water. Does anyone here have a chameleon that shows any more intelligence than these fish? If so, please tell me in what way do they demonstrate it? Courtship behavior and territorial behavior- I can point out aquarium fish that have both - many ciclids for example care for their eggs as parents together and guard their young. Both a step up from chameleon behavior in complexity. But for some reason, I don't see many people comparing fish farms to puppy mills...
That may not win me a lot of fans here- sorry about that, and please don't misinterpret what I just said.
I think chams are wonderful lizards and deserve a nice clean, roomy enclosure with plenty of light and foliage and a good misting system and kind and gentle care.
At the same time, I think sensationalism, romanticism and anthropomorphism are not good starting points for societal ethics. (oddly enough, I'm all for them being good starting points for personal ethics, but then again, I believe we should make a distinction between what is important for ourselves and what is important for society, they aren't necessarily the same)...
2nd - they don't breed so well for very long if a basic level of good husbandry is not given. "Puppy mill" conjures up cramped, filthy image with sickly animals. Reptiles simply will not breed more than a season if that when subjected to such treatment. Again- don't misunderstand- I am all for giving adequate room, but here again, we are talking about a cold blooded, 3 chambered heart animal vs a warm blooded animal that requires a lot of excersize to stay healthy and happy.
* Professional breeders are not involved on internet discussion boards because they will somehow reveal that their husbandry is not appropriate-
Having known some of these people, I don't believe that for a second. The reason they don't participate is because there are too many people with too little experience regurgitating stuff they have read with all the confidence of true experts, and these people often angrily shout down anyone who disagrees, resorting to personal attacks rather than sticking to the facts.
Many of these experts of regurgitation are very strongly opinionated, very militant and aggressive about their opinions, and love to argue and imply anyone who disagrees is somehow immoral. Even though they themselves have no experience to back up their own opinion.
(Case in point- the original poster is implying something by using the term "chameleon mills" without ever having visted a professional breeding facility to see if that is the case or not...)
It is a waste of time for breeders to have to deal with these sorts of people. And they *always* seem to pop up when a good pro pops up. I've been on the net from the early 90s when it was all text based - I remember web browsers coming online lol. I can remember a handful of pros whose names I think anyone here who knows reptiles would recognise come on and go silent not long after because these sorts of people got nasty- and it usually takes a very short time. It didn't take long for the lesson to be learned.
If things go badly with the loud angry minority even if they don't know what they are talking about, it can still cause significant loss of business from the majority and ruin everything for a breeder. Even if it doesn't go that badly, a lot of time and attention and energy and stress can be spent dealing with the idiots instead of with what is important...
Another reason- most of them are actually busy taking care of their animals and their business and don't have time or energy to log on and give advice to people who would basically mooching free info but who will never be grateful enough to purchase from the breeder who spent his money, blood, sweat, and tears to gain that knowledge and share it on a public forum. Like it or not, the majority shop price over reputation (which is sad). Good husbandry takes a lot of time and effort- participation in public forums on the internet costs both time and effort and as I have explained- very often for little in return.
Something some of you may or may not be surprised to learn is that the some of the most well known breeders of other lizards, are also some of the biggest suppliers to the wholesalers of those same lizards. They keep the very best for selling at shows and online, and the ones that don't make the quality cut (for things like color) end up being sold to the wholesalers who supply the pet shop trade for much, much less. This provides an outlet for their lower quality lizards.
A significant percentage of other breeders who supply the wholesalers are basement breeders. Part timers who either don't want to deal with the hassle of dealing with individuals, or people who dreamed of easy money and produce a clutch who then discover that it is much more time consuming, expensive, and difficult to raise and sell the young than they had believed.
For that matter, one fool in a basement who buys siblings at a show and who doesn't need to make money because it's his hobby can more easily become a "chameleon mill" than a professional who is trying to produce predictably year in and year out and is looking at the long term.
So when you walk into a pet shop, you never know what are going to get- something from a good breeder or a basement breeder who got lucky one time in spite of his husbandry. ..
Personally, I'm more inclined to be skeptical of the guy's husbandry who hasn't been producing large numbers year-in, year-out... The guy who produces large numbers is able to do so precisely because of his husbandry.
Thats not to say all like that are doing the best they can, or even all have great husbandry. But I certainly don't think it's fair to compare most of the ones who have been around for a while to puppy mills...
PS- I also don't mean to imply there aren't great people who produce excellent animals part time in their basement as a hobby! I know there are good and bad on both sides- I just think the original assertion that started the thread is a not fair assumption.
jeanjacket812
New Member
Outside of a dozen or so people (private breeders), how may pet shops do you think really have 100's of chameleons for sale at any given time? It would be a huge waste of time and money for a pet shop setting to have that many at once, and I don't know of any that have even close to 100.
Eltortu
Established Member
its the xanthoview and i know many wont like it, but it has to be said. i dont know if there is a lot of people who do wholesale breeding, but i do think there are quite a few. im not going to name any names cause , well for one, it would be a violation of site policy for starters, plus i dont want to step on anybodys toes, but i do think there are those that run "chameleon mills" so to speak. im not talking about the horrid conditions of puppy mills, cause i dont think you could do that with chameleons and still make it pay, and i am not saying that the primary motivation is money, but i do think that unless you are already fairly well to do, that is just part of the economics of keeping more than several chameleons. at some point, the expense becomes such that vigorously breeding and selling chameleons is the only way to keep it all going. and for those who have been sucessful at it , not just husbandry wise, but economically as well, it just makes financial sense, to increase the size of ones collection, rather than decrease it (especially if one is beginning to make money at it when they are not already making good money at something else). it wouldnt be hard to think of more than several outfits (individuals) that just started out as casual cham keepers, and somehow manage to parlay that into an outfit that now does a substantial amount of business. there seems to be a fairly long list of people who breed (or import) hundreds of chameleons a year, regardless of their motivations. if one is keeping several dozen chams or more,(unless one is already well to do)there are really only two ways to go, broke, or try to make money at it. i think there is a fairly long list of people who have managed quite well to do that, at least several on this forum. i think that maybe there is a much longer list of people who have tried and failed. if you look at most of the people who sell chams as part of a regular commercial business, few, if any have any buyer requirements,
Well said sister...
OldSkoolxReasons
New Member
I'm glad someone like jim who breeds on a very, very large scale and only sells exceptional animal(at least from my experience in buying many healthy and stunning chams from him) chimed in and helped clarify things a bit. Like any business quantity is money but also like other businesses quantity with quality will make a lot more money than a quantity of sickly animals. Seeing as there was an article in reptiles about panther chameleons and the chameleon company was featured I'd say it's safe to say his practices are ethical. Reptiles in basically one of the only decent reptile/amphib publications out there with some credibility. And not matter how many chams a person has now if they started out like all of us on the forum own a single or a few animals, as I'm sure jim probably did at one point, they know how attached you get to chams and I highly doubt anyone from the cham company would walk past a sick cham or breed unhealthy animals. Like I said I have only gotten top quality animals from them and many other members on here have much of the same to say. I mean have you ever seen a post about someone receiving a downright sickly cham from them? I haven't. Although I don't buy from most petstores unless they properly house their animals I understand the demand for chameleons and realize it is better for them to start out with healthy chams than dyeing ones. At least if a healthy cham is sold to a dirty and bad petstore because of the quality it arrived in it will most likely make it longer unsold than a wild caught and will not hurt the wild populations. All of us dream of seeing chams in the wild, some of us have, the rest of us who have not may never have the chance if large scale breeders are shunned because all cham will end up imports and will go extinct far faster than they are going to is we produce CB animals.
Justin
EDIT: If you think about how many chams are really out there in petsmarts and other pet stores it really does baffle you. However any idiot with half a brain and the internet can get a pair of veiled chams and produce upwards of 200 a year. Generally I see maybe 7-10 tops at a petstore. Thats one person supplying 10-13 petstores for a month or a few months themselves.
Justin
EDIT: If you think about how many chams are really out there in petsmarts and other pet stores it really does baffle you. However any idiot with half a brain and the internet can get a pair of veiled chams and produce upwards of 200 a year. Generally I see maybe 7-10 tops at a petstore. Thats one person supplying 10-13 petstores for a month or a few months themselves.
Seeco
Avid Member
Supply and demand is the problem facing all chameleon breeders both because of WC importation and the high fecundity of captive females:
Females produce too many offspring. All breeders need a steady supply of eggs but it would be ideal if chams only laid about 4 to 8 at a time. If there was no importation from the wild and females only laid 4 to 8 eggs, breeders would demand a good price and get paid accordingly. In reality, though, as soon as someone succeeds to hatch out a clutch they have instantly flooded their own market with the very product they need to sell and thus lowered the price per animal. Then come the imports (any month now actually)... and the breeder still must keep feeding and growing this horde of babies.
If it wasn't for the imports I'd just lie and say oh yeah only 5 eggs hatched so I'm charging $500 each. Then I'd actually have a job.
I'm just playing devil's advocate but how about rather than spaying females we ban all importation from the wild and pledge to smash 50% of all eggs laid by our animals?
Females produce too many offspring. All breeders need a steady supply of eggs but it would be ideal if chams only laid about 4 to 8 at a time. If there was no importation from the wild and females only laid 4 to 8 eggs, breeders would demand a good price and get paid accordingly. In reality, though, as soon as someone succeeds to hatch out a clutch they have instantly flooded their own market with the very product they need to sell and thus lowered the price per animal. Then come the imports (any month now actually)... and the breeder still must keep feeding and growing this horde of babies.
If it wasn't for the imports I'd just lie and say oh yeah only 5 eggs hatched so I'm charging $500 each. Then I'd actually have a job.
I'm just playing devil's advocate but how about rather than spaying females we ban all importation from the wild and pledge to smash 50% of all eggs laid by our animals?
RPCV
Avid Member
Great thought provoking discussion. This and the "morphs debate" have made for some good reading.
I've been trying to think of an appropriate analogy. Can't go with any comparisons to humans because of my long standing belief that anyone who compares a critter to a child should be slapped. Best I could come up with is a car...the manufacturer has the responsibility of providing vehicle at least similar to the competition. They will also provide instructions for care and routine maintenance. Failure to provide these results in a short lived business model. Even so, there will always be some customers who will by a car, blow off the preventative maintenance, not change the oil; then claim they were sold a lemon.
No matter the amount of diligence provided by the breeder in providing healthy animals and educating the consumer there will be some that ignore that advice and it would be very difficult to predict in advance who those would be. My hobby experience with chams is very short. However, all the breeders I've talked to on the phone, traded e-mails with, met at shows and read on this forum have shown genuine concern for the continued well being of animals and took the time to share their knowledge with me (even after I had purchased from someone else). Granted - my experience in this has been short and the "sample size" of breeders who I've interacted with is small but I get the impression the fault of poor husbandry would more often than not be on the consumer (or "middle man") side of the equation.
From the peanut gallery - I don't think the original post was meant to imply anything and I did not get the impression the intent was for any other reason than to satisfy curiosity (I was also curious about this topic).
Fluxlizard's post was classic. Well written and informed with an underlying "nasty" subtext about people who are "nasty". Nice!
I've been trying to think of an appropriate analogy. Can't go with any comparisons to humans because of my long standing belief that anyone who compares a critter to a child should be slapped. Best I could come up with is a car...the manufacturer has the responsibility of providing vehicle at least similar to the competition. They will also provide instructions for care and routine maintenance. Failure to provide these results in a short lived business model. Even so, there will always be some customers who will by a car, blow off the preventative maintenance, not change the oil; then claim they were sold a lemon.
No matter the amount of diligence provided by the breeder in providing healthy animals and educating the consumer there will be some that ignore that advice and it would be very difficult to predict in advance who those would be. My hobby experience with chams is very short. However, all the breeders I've talked to on the phone, traded e-mails with, met at shows and read on this forum have shown genuine concern for the continued well being of animals and took the time to share their knowledge with me (even after I had purchased from someone else). Granted - my experience in this has been short and the "sample size" of breeders who I've interacted with is small but I get the impression the fault of poor husbandry would more often than not be on the consumer (or "middle man") side of the equation.
From the peanut gallery - I don't think the original post was meant to imply anything and I did not get the impression the intent was for any other reason than to satisfy curiosity (I was also curious about this topic).
Fluxlizard's post was classic. Well written and informed with an underlying "nasty" subtext about people who are "nasty". Nice!
Isnt keeping them humanely humanizing them in a way? Animals have a right to be left alone without people like most of the keepers here trying their hand at breeding because sights like these have made it so easy for any 12 yr old with a decent allowance, to experiment with breeding. Im by no means racist, at one point alot of races were treated as animals, african imigrant slaves, irish slaves, native americans etc...but some how even thoes "animals" were awarded rights. I thought the keeping of exotic hard to keep animals of any species was to be observant and learn how to recreate their natural habitat so that our great grandchildren might get to witness a chameleon, tiger, lion, eagle, panda etc in a natural setting without doors and plexi glass. where the animals arent caged at night when they paying spectators have gone home to their natural habitat.
if you dont want the animals to have rights thats like saying go ahead and cut down all the trees, pollute all the waters because they have no right to live there
Elizadolots
New Member
Courtney, this is not my view, but some would argue that animals are here to serve man. It's a bit of a perversion of the first book of the bible....
I would argue that this is not a simple situation and frankly, Chris Anderson has made extremely persuasive, intelligent posts to support the idea that captive breeders help the wild population...and, isn't that the more important population in a global sense?
I will now pull out another hand and point out that the importation of chameleons from the wild helps preserve those wild lands against industrialization or conversion to a more profitable growth like opium poppies.
Every year the SD Wild Animal Park has a Butterfly festival. They import thousands of butterflies from people who own sections of the rain forest. They pay a pretty penny for the butterflies too. The idea is: if the land owners can recognize a profit from the sale of wildlife that exists on their land, they are less likely to sell it off to someone who will plow it down and plant Poppy.
So, I don't know if eliminating the desire for wild caught animals is a completely good thing....
It's probably like everything else in life: moderation is the key...we need moderate importation of live wild caught animals, we need moderate breeding of captive animals to provide for the demand.
I would argue that this is not a simple situation and frankly, Chris Anderson has made extremely persuasive, intelligent posts to support the idea that captive breeders help the wild population...and, isn't that the more important population in a global sense?
I will now pull out another hand and point out that the importation of chameleons from the wild helps preserve those wild lands against industrialization or conversion to a more profitable growth like opium poppies.
Every year the SD Wild Animal Park has a Butterfly festival. They import thousands of butterflies from people who own sections of the rain forest. They pay a pretty penny for the butterflies too. The idea is: if the land owners can recognize a profit from the sale of wildlife that exists on their land, they are less likely to sell it off to someone who will plow it down and plant Poppy.
So, I don't know if eliminating the desire for wild caught animals is a completely good thing....
It's probably like everything else in life: moderation is the key...we need moderate importation of live wild caught animals, we need moderate breeding of captive animals to provide for the demand.
Ryan Jarosek
New Member
Whoa , I think you are looking for another "site" http://www.peta.org I think they will agree with your views over there. that is an interesting take on breeding and the keepers here.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
My apologizes- Much of what I wrote has been bubbling under the surface with me for years and has nothing to do with you at all.
But OTH I do feel you were disrespectful when you used the term "chameleon mills". I don't think the term is fair and was chosen to generate hostility of a sort. But that is where my comments towards you specifically ended- everything else should be taken as general speak and has nothing to do with you at all...
In fact I think the rest you quoted referring to idiots referred to the topic of why most full time breeders aren't involved in discussion boards and is a side issue brought up by someone else who insinuated that they weren't involved because they would somehow be found out that they had poor husbandry and had nothing to do with you or your original post.
My apologies- like I said- some of this stuff has been bugging me for years and has nothing whatsoever to do with you. I'm sure you are a lovely person and please do not let the tone of my post bother you. I was letting steam out of a valve that has been closed for a looong time. I'm normally quite a nice guy myself.
lol
fluxlizard
Avid Member
If by humanely you mean keeping them kindly and with respect for their needs, then I would argue that it is the opposite of humanizing them. They must be kept as lizards, not funny looking enslaved people in lizard suits.
If by humanely you mean- pretending they are human-like, treating them as humans dressed in scaly Halloween outfits and affording them human rights, I'd say, yes, that is humanising them. It is also disrespecting their nature and needs and a good way to misunderstand and misinterpret their needs and desires.
No it isn't.
It doesn't have to be so black and white as all that.
I am all for respecting the balance of nature, setting aside natural reserves and treating captive animals with respect and kindness. But I am also definitely of the opinion that it is my right as a human to own and manage my own property, whether it is a lizard that I paid for or land that I paid for. For me the issue is how we choose to do that as individuals that is important. That doesn't mean we have to go to the opposite extreme and burn the forest and kill the animals...
Elizadolots
New Member
I'm reminded of a moment in a bad Star Trek movie....one of the crew of the Enterprise says "there are certain inalienable rights" and the Klingon responds "the very term is racist" ....(not exact quotes)
I do think there is a concept of treating animals well that gets called "humanely"..Oddly, PETA probably has it right because "ethically" might be a better term.
And, while I agree with fluxlizard that they are not humans, I look around these forums and see people suggesting care for chameleons that no human in my family gets. He's been constipated for a week? For a chameleon here that's a vet trip...in my family that's time for the enema bag. So, I think the whole issue is pretty messed up.
While I expect to be pilloried for this, I think pets are pets. We own them. While I agree with laws against being cruel to them, I think that's close to where it stops. If someone wants to paint her poodle to look like a flag, well..not my taste and I feel sorry for the dog, but it is her dog.
I'd love for pet stores to be very careful about the animals they accept and demand that the breeder provide proof that the situation is good. I'd probably even support legislation to demand that pet stores do that. I will note that the definition of "good" is probably not going to be one that satisfies the general owner (as opposed to experienced breeder).
I agree that it's reasonable for an experienced breeder to breed chameleons as often as they are physically able to breed. Once they recover from laying or birthing, they are ready to breed on the next cycle....that's pretty much what they would do in nature.
I do think there is a concept of treating animals well that gets called "humanely"..Oddly, PETA probably has it right because "ethically" might be a better term.
And, while I agree with fluxlizard that they are not humans, I look around these forums and see people suggesting care for chameleons that no human in my family gets. He's been constipated for a week? For a chameleon here that's a vet trip...in my family that's time for the enema bag. So, I think the whole issue is pretty messed up.
While I expect to be pilloried for this, I think pets are pets. We own them. While I agree with laws against being cruel to them, I think that's close to where it stops. If someone wants to paint her poodle to look like a flag, well..not my taste and I feel sorry for the dog, but it is her dog.
I'd love for pet stores to be very careful about the animals they accept and demand that the breeder provide proof that the situation is good. I'd probably even support legislation to demand that pet stores do that. I will note that the definition of "good" is probably not going to be one that satisfies the general owner (as opposed to experienced breeder).
I agree that it's reasonable for an experienced breeder to breed chameleons as often as they are physically able to breed. Once they recover from laying or birthing, they are ready to breed on the next cycle....that's pretty much what they would do in nature.
DJ Richey Rich
New Member
tomato tomoto
20,000 reptiles seized at Arlington pet wholesaler, sounds the same as a mill to me.
20,000 exotic animals -- and hundreds more dead ones -- seized at Arlington pet wholesaler
ARLINGTON — Animal welfare workers removed more than 20,000 exotic animals from a north Arlington pet wholesaler Tuesday in what officials called one of the largest seizures of its kind.
Arlington Animal Services, along with the Humane Society of North Texas and the SPCA, raided U.S. Global Exotics in the Great Southwest Industrial District after federal authorities tipped city officials to inhumane conditions, officials said.
The federal authorities seized the company’s records and computers last week in a separate investigation. The nature of that investigation could not be learned Tuesday.
Hundreds of carcasses were found, and the smell of death inside the one-story building was overwhelming, workers said.
"Such a number of dead or dying animals I’ve never seen before," said Texas SPCA President James Bias, who has worked for animal welfare agencies in North Texas for years.
Because of overcrowding and a lack of food, some of the animals had started eating one another. Inside cardboard boxes, the workers found hundreds of dead turtles and lizards that had been packed more than a week earlier, according to their shipping labels.
"One of the most heartbreaking things I saw was hundreds of deceased iguanas. I stopped counting at 200," said Maura Davies, spokeswoman for the SPCA. "There were dozens more."
Among the animals that were still alive were turtles and lizards, a large variety of snakes, spiders and crabs, as well as kinkajous, sugar gliders, sloths, hedgehogs and prairie dogs, officials said. The animals, some quite valuable, were taken to undisclosed locations for care.
Multimillion-dollar outfit
Phone calls to the business were not returned Tuesday.
U.S. Global Exotics, in the 1000 block of Oakmead Drive, listed its owners as Jasen Shaw and Vanessa Shaw on its Web site. It is licensed with the U.S. Agriculture Department, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and Texas Parks and Wildlife, according to the Web site, which was taken down Tuesday afternoon. The company sold animals online, primarily to pet shops, animal officials said. A sign on the door read: "Not open to the public. No wholesale walk in sales at any time."
"This wasn’t a pet shop. This was a multimillion-dollar business," said Jay Sabatucci, Arlington Animal Services manager. "Some of these animals are very beautiful. I could see why someone would want them in their home or office to look at."
The local animal agencies brought in veterinarians and experts from around the world to assess the animals’ health and provide appropriate food and shelter.
A court hearing will be scheduled within 10 days to determine who gets custody of the animals, Sabatucci said.
No one was arrested Tuesday, but Arlington is conducting an animal cruelty investigation that could result in felony charges.
"I do believe we have a very good case," Sabatucci said.
Bias estimated that it would cost $100,000 for the agencies to provide temporary care for the animals. That’s bad news in a year when donations are already down and the number of animals in need is up because of the recession, he said.
20,000 reptiles seized at Arlington pet wholesaler, sounds the same as a mill to me.
20,000 exotic animals -- and hundreds more dead ones -- seized at Arlington pet wholesaler
ARLINGTON — Animal welfare workers removed more than 20,000 exotic animals from a north Arlington pet wholesaler Tuesday in what officials called one of the largest seizures of its kind.
Arlington Animal Services, along with the Humane Society of North Texas and the SPCA, raided U.S. Global Exotics in the Great Southwest Industrial District after federal authorities tipped city officials to inhumane conditions, officials said.
The federal authorities seized the company’s records and computers last week in a separate investigation. The nature of that investigation could not be learned Tuesday.
Hundreds of carcasses were found, and the smell of death inside the one-story building was overwhelming, workers said.
"Such a number of dead or dying animals I’ve never seen before," said Texas SPCA President James Bias, who has worked for animal welfare agencies in North Texas for years.
Because of overcrowding and a lack of food, some of the animals had started eating one another. Inside cardboard boxes, the workers found hundreds of dead turtles and lizards that had been packed more than a week earlier, according to their shipping labels.
"One of the most heartbreaking things I saw was hundreds of deceased iguanas. I stopped counting at 200," said Maura Davies, spokeswoman for the SPCA. "There were dozens more."
Among the animals that were still alive were turtles and lizards, a large variety of snakes, spiders and crabs, as well as kinkajous, sugar gliders, sloths, hedgehogs and prairie dogs, officials said. The animals, some quite valuable, were taken to undisclosed locations for care.
Multimillion-dollar outfit
Phone calls to the business were not returned Tuesday.
U.S. Global Exotics, in the 1000 block of Oakmead Drive, listed its owners as Jasen Shaw and Vanessa Shaw on its Web site. It is licensed with the U.S. Agriculture Department, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and Texas Parks and Wildlife, according to the Web site, which was taken down Tuesday afternoon. The company sold animals online, primarily to pet shops, animal officials said. A sign on the door read: "Not open to the public. No wholesale walk in sales at any time."
"This wasn’t a pet shop. This was a multimillion-dollar business," said Jay Sabatucci, Arlington Animal Services manager. "Some of these animals are very beautiful. I could see why someone would want them in their home or office to look at."
The local animal agencies brought in veterinarians and experts from around the world to assess the animals’ health and provide appropriate food and shelter.
A court hearing will be scheduled within 10 days to determine who gets custody of the animals, Sabatucci said.
No one was arrested Tuesday, but Arlington is conducting an animal cruelty investigation that could result in felony charges.
"I do believe we have a very good case," Sabatucci said.
Bias estimated that it would cost $100,000 for the agencies to provide temporary care for the animals. That’s bad news in a year when donations are already down and the number of animals in need is up because of the recession, he said.
Julirs
New Member
I would personally like to thank everyone for the best morning "read while eating my raisin bran"! There have been excellent and thoughtful posts and some that are-well--simply entertaining!
Chris Anderson-an intelligence test prior to breeding? LOL-There goes all of the happy people!
Chris Anderson-an intelligence test prior to breeding? LOL-There goes all of the happy people!
Cainschams
New Member
Dj richy......... You say tomato I say tomoto I think we are talking about chameleon breeders here, not exotic pet wholesalers.
You say tomato I say tomoto I think we are talking about chameleon breeders here, not exotic pet wholesalers.
Ryan Jarosek
New Member
Dj richy.........
We are also having a discussion not plagiarizing a news article. Way to copy paste. Have any original thought to add or is this unrelated story what you would like to contribute.
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