My new wild-caught veiled...he shows self-awareness via the mirror test

[MarkP6644]

Like most chameleons, he will hide himself behind a branch and slim his body to hide behind the branch. However, if I put him on mine or a friends head he is perfectly fine. But, as soon as you put him in front of a mirror he recognizes himself and myself (or another person) in the mirror. He watches himself through the mirror to make sure his veil/tail, and no other part of his body is visible except for one, or both of his eyes (normally only one eye, the firs time he noticed his veil was sticking up and leaned sideways while cocking his head to look with only one eye).
I have several other chameleons, and tried the mirror test with them as well. Unfortunately none of the others (Panther female/male, Oustalet, and 2 female veiled) even acknowledged the mirror. But the male veiled does definitely recognize himself in the mirror and will stare at himself as well as watch my eyes and body movements through the mirror.

 

[wavingsnail]

Call me a cynic here, but...

I don't see the described behavior as self awareness. What I take from the behavior is that as a wild caught male he must be ever vigilant in protecting and maintaining his territory, as an encounter with a roving male could have been a weekly occurence.

Manuvering his body so that his casque is hidden doesn't strike me as a chameleon having a sense of self, but rather a chameleon who has perceived a threat and chosen to hide rather than stand and fight.

I've been keeping reptiles for a good number of years, and one of the biggest mistakes we as keepers (even the seasoned vets) seem to make time and time again is to project or assign our thoughts and emotions onto an animal that is primarily driven by instinct and response to external stimuli.

EDIT -

I also wanted to add that beautiful though he may be, your angry little pal there does not look happy. He looks irritated (shocking for a chameleon I know) and threatened. I'd lay off the mirror all together.

It does beg an interesting question though - has generations of captive breeding taken the sense of self preservation out of chameleons to a certain extent? I only ask since you claim your others don't react to the "mirror test".

 

[MarkP6644]

I posted this elsewhere also, and I can tell you, if he see's another male he will puff out and turn dark--if a female he will turn light and chase (edit: I should clarify; he turns brighter colors and gets excited with female veileds--I have mated him; he is territorial as all chameleons are, and have witnessed him get angry multiple times with other males and knight anoles--and even chasing down a curly-tailed lizard). Given that you have kept reptiles for years you've definitely witnessed this. but have you ever had a reptile stare at him self and watch your moves (watch your eyes and body movements) via the mirror....aside from iguanas bobbing their heads from a mirror. Not being rude just counter arguing because I have also kept reptiles for a good number of years (I've grown up with them since I was a baby), and if you were to come meet Zeus you would see his self-awareness

 

[MarkP6644]

I posted this elsewhere, and I can tell you, if he see's another male he will puff out and turn dark--if a female he will turn light and chase. Given that you have kept reptiles for years you've definitely witnessed this. but have you ever had a reptile stare at him self and watch your moves (watch your eyes and body movements) via the mirror....aside from iguanas bobbing their heads from a mirror. Not being rude just counter arguing because I have also kept reptiles for a good number of years (I've grown up with them since I was a baby), and if you were to come meet Zeus you would see his self-awareness

I only say I posted this elsewhere, because a few people have stated that. But it is evident when a large territorial male reptile comes in contact with another male...as opposed to him curiously looking at himself in the mirror and using the mirror to watch your body and eye movements as well as utilizing the mirror to hide himself as you see when a chameleon tries to hide himself behind a stick when you approach him. He even noticed his tail and veil were visible, moved his tail, and cocked and leaned his head to the side.

 

[wavingsnail]

I'm not sure if you're misusing the term self awareness or just don't understand it, but, again, Zeus is not displaying it.

Being aware if himself would mean that there would be no perceived threat in the mirror, no need to hide.

As far as the watching of eyes go, this is common in nature. He is watching you to see if you are watching him. Animals understand the importance of eyes. It's why so many have patterns that mimic the overall shape of a set of eyes.

I also don't want you to think I'm doubting the intelligence of reptiles in general - some of your bigger "top of the foodchain" lizards tend to have less to fear and as a result display next to no prey behavior and are very inquisitive and bold.

From what I've seen of chameleons (my experience is limited in that department, I'm a varanid man at heart) they simply don't fit that profile and for the most part exist as fairly cautious prey animals that have much to fear, even from their own species, or even reflections.

 

[MarkP6644]

Also to your question, all mine are wild-caught except for a few. I live near an area where there are populations of wild chameleons (invasive). and your right about him being angry in that pic, it was one of the first pics I took after I caught him, but he is a gentle giant and we formed a bond immediately; he's also the biggest chameleon I've ever seen, even bigger than my oustalets!

 

[MarkP6644]

I do understand the perceived threat and have witnessed it a lot--the difference is; he is using the mirror to his advantage, which i have never witnessed in this way before. He is fine on top of a strangers head, but that stranger puts him in their hand and he hides behind their hand as best he can. With me he avidly looks at himself in the mirror and if nervous/anxious or scared, utilizes the mirror for his advantage to hide himself. For instance; lets say he is hiding from another perceived male for flight instead of fight, he would duck behind my head as my other chameleons do..however he watches your eyes and body motions, if he gets nervous he will scoot back to hide himself. He then notices his tail is visible and hides it, then sees his veil and cocks his head to hide it in order to hide his whole body except for his eye. Unless nervous or frightened he chills on me head and loves it (he probably spent 3-5hours on my head today catching insects and such, again hes a gently giant).

But maybe you are right, I have just never seen such strategic and aware behavior before; and my female wild caught chameleon is the smartest chameleon I myself have dealt with.

 

[MarkP6644]

Maybe someone else can chime in and possibly give more examples of chameleons using a mirror to their advantage. Because I have never witnessed that with any reptile; unlike iguanas bobbing their head in the mirror, or chameleons which don't even acknowledge the mirror as existing.

 

[MarkP6644]

So basically he chills on my head and looks at himself (with both eyes), but when nervous/scared, or a perceived threat is present, like a friend, he uses the mirror to hide his body and makes sure his body is fully hidden via the mirror image of himself.

 

[cyberlocc]

Subbed.

Nothing to add, just want to see how this plays out.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'm having a lot of trouble wording this but @MarkP6644 your observations say zilch about whether or not this animal has any self awareness when looking in the mirror.

 

[MarkP6644]

In the most basic terms, self-awareness is the ability to recognize oneself (in the mirror test for example). Do you agree with me? Zeus uses his own self image in order to position his body (and recognizes that his tail/veil are still visible, and adjusts accordingly to his mirror image) for hiding. I am genuinely curious, and have never seen this before, hence why I made a post and am so enthusiastic about it. Don't get me wrong, a chameleon is good at hiding his body behind a branch, narrowing his body in order to hide it, and even moving around the branch based on your movement. But I have never heard of or seen a chameleon doing this based solely on a mirror image (thus recognizing himself in the mirror). I beg of you or anyone else to find one instance where a chameleon has used his own self-image via a mirror to maneuver his body like Zeus did (again, not like an iguana bobbing his head, or a chameleon puffing out because he thinks he see's another male-competition in the mirror).

 

[MarkP6644]

I think I know a way I might can test this more thoroughly, but again, I've never seen this and am looking for any insight. But if he is in front of me where he cannot see behind me, and a perceived threat comes from behind, he would have to use only the mirror to maneuver his own body to hide from the perceived threat that is behind me (invisible to him unless he could see around or through me). Again, he already looks at himself in the mirror, and looks at me--my other chameleons don't even recognize a mirror, though my iguanas, my owl, and other animals do; however they don't acknowledge themselves and look at themselves like Zeus does.
So perceived threat is behind me invisible to him except through the mirror, and he's on my arm. If he positions himself to hide completely behind my arm from the perceived threat only visible in the mirror, my understanding would be that he can recognize himself and the perceived threat via the mirror.
Edit: @jajeanpierre @wavingsnail

 

[jajeanpierre]

Again, @MarkP6644 I don't know where to begin....

The mirror test used in self awareness studies places a mark on the animal and studies the animal's awareness that the mark they see in the mirror is on them.

Chameleons vision is 360 degrees. They don't need a mirror to see behind them.

You mention you have an owl? Being a stickler for the rules and regulations for things like endangered species and native wild life, I hope you have a permit from US Fish and Wildlife if you are in the US.

 

[MarkP6644]

I have a class 2, and am registered as a volunteer to both rescue and remove animals. With my body, a curtain, etc...blocking his vision so that he could only see something diagonal (a perceived threat) then he could only see himself and what ever the perceived threat is...I have tried a marking and sticker and he seems to notice it, I have also put him in between mirrors and he will watch me through the mirrors. I only opened this thread because I was looking for other open-minded folk who might have some positive criticism and ideas, there is no need to bring your pessimistic attitude and tell me about the self-awareness tests which I happen to have done my thesis on several years ago.

Edit: Also considering you don't even know the species of owl I don't know why you would assume it's endangered...the screech owl is not an endangered species in case you were interested.

 

[brownie64]

MarkP6644 I'm not going to comment on weather he is or isn't self aware. However I do believe you are stressing him out by shoving all those mirrors in his face. I think it would be more prudent for you to consider the effect this may be having on him rather than weather he is or isn't self aware. Just my two cents.

 

[MarkP6644]

Thanks for your consideration, and that was one of my first considerations. However he seems to like looking at himself in the mirror. He is very attached to me and bonded with me immediately, so it could just be that he just likes being with me, regardless of a mirror or not.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I have a class 2, and am registered as a volunteer to both rescue and remove animals. With my body, a curtain, etc...blocking his vision so that he could only see something diagonal (a perceived threat) then he could only see himself and what ever the perceived threat is...I have tried a marking and sticker and he seems to notice it, I have also put him in between mirrors and he will watch me through the mirrors. I only opened this thread because I was looking for other open-minded folk who might have some positive criticism and ideas, there is no need to bring your pessimistic attitude and tell me about the self-awareness tests which I happen to have done my thesis on several years ago.

Edit: Also considering you don't even know the species of owl I don't know why you would assume it's endangered...the screech owl is not an endangered species in case you were interested.

Any owl and bird of prey is protected under the Migratory Bird Act, and that includes the possession of even a feather. I don' need to know the species, only that it is an owl in Canada or the US. The only complicating issue is whether or not you are a Native American.

http://www.gpnc.org/raptors1.htm

As far as being open minded, this forum has a lot of trouble convincing new owners that their chameleons do not form social bonds with them and do not like to be handled, petted or cuddled. That kind of thinking kills an awful lot of chameleons. The owners of the chameleons do not see a connection between their chameleons poor health status with the stress of handling.

There is nothing scientific about your observations. The long-term well being of chameleons in captivity depends on their keepers understanding what a chameleon is and what it is not. Anecdotal anthropomophic observations by someone who didn't set anything up in a scientific manner only hurts chameleons.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks for your consideration, and that was one of my first considerations. However he seems to like looking at himself in the mirror. He is very attached to me and bonded with me immediately, so it could just be that he just likes being with me, regardless of a mirror or not.

I rest my case. A chameleon does not have the capacity to "bond" with a chameleon, much less a human. It is not in their nature.

 

[MarkP6644]

You do realize there is a permit for raptors and migratory birds. http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/protected-wildlife/raptors/
Furthermore; "not in their nature"? Cats are solitary creatures and form strong bonds with humans. I will agree that most chameleons are solitary, and my female Oustalet is a prime example, I rarely handle her because she is very independent. However she knows who I am, and will only allow me to handle her; even coming out of her cage to me to get eye drops when she got an eye infection. Try being a little more open minded and optimistic, a great many of scientists invented and discovered stuff that was seemingly impossible. http://sfglobe.com/2015/06/17/a-costa-rican-man-shares-an-incredible-bond-with-a-crocodile/ I'm assuming you wouldn't believe in this bond with the man and his crocodile because it is "against their nature". And I never stated that there was anything scientific behind my observations, I simply stated what I saw and proposed a possible scientific method to inquiry about my observations and asked for opinions and positive criticism. Unfortunately if everyone followed your thought process the scientific method would be meaningless if there is no previous scientific information to back up someones observations.
I rest my case.