New Quads! Imported Feb/15

[jajeanpierre]

First pics of the 12g female and 13g male. Added bonus, bright red hitch hikers.

This was taken first thing in the morning right after I turned on their lights. I saw all three babies snatching up crickets that I put in this morning.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Gracilior male

With an edible hitch hiker from Florida. I saw him eating a cricket, so I've seen four out of five eating. I can't find the gracilior female--she might have eaten, too, but she's deep in the foliage. He weighed 25g yesterday.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Quad quad female

The biggest quad quad at 17 grams. This was where she slept last night--yes she is hanging upside down. When I dumped in some little crickets, she stayed put and snapped up quite a few. The young ones don't seem as visibly stressed by my presence. They'll eat and drink right in front of me. I hope they aren't tricking me and really are stressed.

 

[Mike Fisher]

They look much better than the last shipment. Better get those red spots looked at though. And plastic plants in Texas is a really bad idea BTW.

 

[johnnyev]

Could the red spots be ticks?

They are coming along great jeanpierre. Great job.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Gracilior female

She was up at the top so I snuck a picture before she slunk away. She doesn't look as plump as she did yesterday. Time will tell if she is gravid. I went to mist the gracilior male and saw him again eating another cricket. Yay!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Could the red spots be ticks?

They are coming along great jeanpierre. Great job.

Thanks you. I know at least four of the five have eaten multiple bugs because I've seen them. The female is hidden more and her cage is in deep in my garden tubso I can deal with the water until my new DragonStrand cages arrive--you know those stupid tubs that are about 3' deep that everyone wants until they actually get one?

They are ticks or mites I think. The importer wasn't worried, he said leave them alone, they'll fall off, they don't reproduce (probably one of the hosts is not here in North America so their life cycle is broken), they come on reptiles from certain areas, don't use any alcohol because you will dehydrate the babies. He was more worried I'd kill the baby with the treatment than the risk of the bug.

And, yes, I did see the comments from someone who had some experience with them so will try to get them off.

I called my vet and asked if I could put a little vegetable oil on them to smother them, which he agreed with. (You can get rid of scaly leg mites in chickens by slathering their legs with oil.) He wanted them put into alcohol to make sure they are good and dead so they aren't introduced into North America.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Could the red spots be ticks?

Most likely mites.

 

[jajeanpierre]

They look much better than the last shipment. Better get those red spots looked at though. And plastic plants in Texas is a really bad idea BTW.

The whole shipment seems better. They were all much smaller, too, which probably makes a big difference.

I am a big believer in real plants for a lot of reasons. The importer said specifically not to use them with the babies. He said he just doesn't have a good outcome with babies and live plants (from Home Depot). He thought it was the junk they put on to fertilize and stop any pests. I decided to heed his advice since he would have dealt with thousands of babies. It won't hurt.

Why Texan plastic plants? The fake plants I bought were all either ZooMed or ExoTerra. I put fake stuff in the tops of the cages for the adults, too. I'm going back to buy some more because the gracilior male needs a bit more. He's in a 24x24x48 cage, so it is hard to really fill it up.

 

[jajeanpierre]

They are coming along great jeanpierre. Great job.

Forgot to comment on this; it's only Day One. Tell me they are coming along great in six months.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Why Texan plastic plants? The fake plants I bought were all either ZooMed or ExoTerra.

LOL. Fake plants in a warmer, drier state, not specifically Texas. I'm in one of the wettest states in the USA and I won't use fake plants. Real plants keep the humidity up way better than misting because they regulate it slowly rather than an on/off cycling like you get with misting.

Fake plants and vines are gimmicky IMO. Like stuff that is supposed to look real at Disneyland. A lot of people go for that sort of thing, like plastic pink flamingos in the front yard of their single wide.

I don't think the chameleons fall for the shenanigans, but some tolerate it ok. I use my live plants like a guide as to how I'm doing. When they thrive, the chameleon usually does too.

 

[NHenn]

I am a big believer in real plants for a lot of reasons. The importer said specifically not to use them with the babies. He said he just doesn't have a good outcome with babies and live plants (from Home Depot). He thought it was the junk they put on to fertilize and stop any pests. I decided to heed his advice since he would have dealt with thousands of babies. It won't hurt.

I find this information very odd? There are plenty of breeders that will only use living plants for raising babies. I personally would much rather wash off anything on the plants so they are safe instead of using fake plants for the little ones.

One thing I learned through my own personal experience when starting to work with a new species, especially one where information isn't widely available is to constantly take a step back and look at the overall picture. Analyze all the information that is being given to you. If you blindly follow the advice of one, you will end up following their same path, making the same mistakes and ultimately missing a great deal of helpful information. In the end, the choice on what information to stick with and what to put aside is solely yours and I recommend to always hear all prior to making those decisions. Just some food for thought

 

[jajeanpierre]

I find this information very odd? There are plenty of breeders that will only use living plants for raising babies. I personally would much rather wash off anything on the plants so they are safe instead of using fake plants for the little ones.

One thing I learned through my own personal experience when starting to work with a new species, especially one where information isn't widely available is to constantly take a step back and look at the overall picture. Analyze all the information that is being given to you. If you blindly follow the advice of one, you will end up following their same path, making the same mistakes and ultimately missing a great deal of helpful information. In the end, the choice on what information to stick with and what to put aside is solely yours and I recommend to always hear all prior to making those decisions. Just some food for thought

I don't think I was clear explaining the message the importer was trying to convey to me. He was not worried about the plants--he was worried about what was on them, in them and in the soil.

I suspect that the plants I have--Home Depot plants--have a lot of systemic garbage in them. I have an orchid I bought from Home Depot with a label that guaranteed it was bug free. I've kept hundreds and hundreds of orchids when I lived in the Caribbean--they have to have something that is in the plant to be able to make that kind of a claim (not that orchids have buggy issues). Ditto with the other stuff I got from Home Depot. I think that's the problem he is talking about. I bought the orchid for my female veiled's cage, but I am not comfortable using it for a few months.

He didn't say don't use live plants, just don't use live store-bought (as in Home Depot) because whenever he did, he had more problems than he felt he should have .

When I read the label about their bug-free guarantee, I wasn't sure I wanted them in anyone's cage. Yes, I washed them off with dish detergent over and over again. I dunked everything into that bucket of soapy water.

I hear what you are saying, but when an importer says his babies don't do well on store-bought plants, I have to listen. I do have some home-grown lettuce plants out on the deck that have bolted--I can put those in. I might have a small thornless citrus on the deck I could put that in.

Personally I'm embarrassed to show pictures of my chameleons with fake plants. Plastic plants to me are just plain tacky. They go with clear plastic furniture covers. Yuck! I still need them to give more cover for the new guys at the top of the cages.

 

[jajeanpierre]

LOL. Fake plants in a warmer, drier state, not specifically Texas. I'm in one of the wettest states in the USA and I won't use fake plants. Real plants keep the humidity up way better than misting because they regulate it slowly rather than an on/off cycling like you get with misting.

Fake plants and vines are gimmicky IMO. Like stuff that is supposed to look real at Disneyland. A lot of people go for that sort of thing, like plastic pink flamingos in the front yard of their single wide.

I don't think the chameleons fall for the shenanigans, but some tolerate it ok. I use my live plants like a guide as to how I'm doing. When they thrive, the chameleon usually does too.

Hey, watch what you say about plastic flamingos. They are very trendy right now.

I do agree that plastic plants and vines are pretty kitschy. And I do agree that no chameleon is going to thrive where plants can't. But, my new wild caughts need the cover at the top of their enclosure. And, no, I personally think a Pothos is a toxic plant, even if no one else on the chameleon forums does, so I won't use that. I do and my vet does.

Unfortunately, I can't find nice indoor plants. In a few months, I 'll be able to buy hibiscus, but they aren't available right now. They are considered a patio plant here, not an indoor plant.

 

[NHenn]

I hear what you are saying, but when an importer says his babies don't do well on store-bought plants, I have to listen.

But who is saying you have to listen? Here is a "breeder" saying babies can and will do very well with store bought plants. I can tell you that as we speak my baby F. campani is sitting on a plant purchased from Lowes. All my R. brevs are growing up on plants purchased from Lowes and my baby panthers are also growing up on plants purchased from Home Depot. I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong, I'm just saying it is sometimes beneficial to question things before they are taken as fact.

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

But who is saying you have to listen? Here is a "breeder" saying babies can and will do very well with store bought plants. I can tell you that as we speak my baby F. campani is sitting on a plant purchased from Lowes. All my R. brevs are growing up on plants purchased from Lowes and my baby panthers are also growing up on plants purchased from Home Depot. I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong, I'm just saying it is sometimes beneficial to question things before they are taken as fact.

Great advice! In my experience I have never had an issue with plants from any of the main chain stores. I clean them and replace the soil and thats it. Never ever had a problem with any baby of any species. The live plants provide too many benefits for young chameleons to leave out. Pothos not safe? please elaborate.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

As with everyone else I would recommend staying away from plastic plants. I am an advocate for keeping chameleons on live plants all the way. Even if you are buying your plants at Lowes.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[TCMontium]

They are such beautiful chams.
I want to say something about the mites. I think they are Pterygosomatidae species. I don't now if they can breed in house but my Kuhl's geckos and dwarf day geckos had those mites and they are BAD. They may not kill a "big" chameleon like that one but they weaken the animal. Also they don't live just a couple weeks, they stay long... or they breed, because even after I got rid of the mites on my Kuhl's geckos they came back 2-3 months later. That means they breed in humid terrariums or they can live several months.
These mites are commonly seen on WC or "farmed" tropical geckos but it seems like even WC or "farmed" chameleons can have those red scary creatures. I recommend you to get rid of those mites with using cotton swabs and mite-off or olive oil (any oil may work too I guess).

 

[Mike Fisher]

Hey, watch what you say about plastic flamingos. They are very trendy right now.

The flamingos are ok, it's the people who put them in their yard that I'm afraid of.

Note that the caresheet/article I referred you to specifically mentions live plants and gives suggestions, and also mentions the use of substrate to keep humidity up. That's a big no no among most keepers here, but I've always done a 50/50 peat/sand mix for my montanes.

My opinion, plastic plants for montanes just won't cut it, sorry.

 

[Action Jackson]

The value of having plastic plants is to help create a parasite free environment. You can disinfect the cage and you can disinfect the plastic plants but you cannot disaffect the soil of a live plant effectively. Chameleons poop on the soil and parasites exist there. I know some of the best breeders use plastic plants for this reason.

That said I use live plants but plan on switching to plastic in some of my cages.