No point in buying from breeders

[Texas Panther Man]

Noticed you didnt say anything when I asked if you did fecals on those wc's? And if your gonna say that the person who you got them from cleaned them up for you. Well, thats a gamble that a real hobbyist breeder doesnt take with their animals currently in their collection or being purchased. Ive bought numerous wc's over the yrs to add to my lines and about 50% of them came in dirty. And that was after being told evrytime that the importer had given them at least one treatment. $1 panthers yeah put me down for one those after youve fed em for 3+ months.....

 

[KarmaChameleon1337]

yea i do care for them but when they die even when i care for them what am i suppose to do? just quit chameleons all together like your saying. I dont think so. Id go right back and try again.

I didn't say quit all together. I'm saying listen to the people FIRST so that they are less likely to DIE. You act like you're such an expert and know EVERYTHING, but you haven't even done it yet. You don't know everything that'll happen, there's many case scenarios. I hope for the sake of the CHAMS that you actually listen to the people who know what they're doing.

 

[thephotoprincess]

I see your point, but in a different way. If you have a clutch of baby veileds and baby panthers, they are going to cost the same to care for. Although you are going to make alot more profit for the panthers. So why cant you sell something like a panther, who cost the same to care for, for the price of a veiled. I know that the original sires of panthers cost more, but you would be making back that money by selling a few of the babies. I believe that the pricing shouldnt be on color and sires, but more on cost of care

Kind of but not really ... my veileds last clutch was 51 eggs and my panther laid 28. It will cost more to raise the veileds as there are more mouths to feed and they also grow faster and eat more ...

It cost more to buy the panthers but I also just have spent $150 on my egg-bound female veiled and if the treatment doesn't work we will be spending more.

At the rate I am going I will be selling my veileds for $300 and the panthers for $50 ! At least that is what I would need to do to make any profit. I've never even come close to breaking even though ... I just enjoy keeping and raising them.

I do agree with the OP on some things though. There is negativity anytime someone does something different than what is parroted back and forth on here and questions don't always get answered as much as finances and motivation gets questioned. There is a lot of good information here but you really need to wade through some crap sometimes to get to it.

 

[reefercheefer]

Noticed you didnt say anything when I asked if you did fecals on those wc's? And if your gonna say that the person who you got them from cleaned them up for you. Well, thats a gamble that a real hobbyist breeder doesnt take with their animals currently in their collection or being purchased. Ive bought numerous wc's over the yrs to add to my lines and about 50% of them came in dirty. And that was after being told evrytime that the importer had given them at least one treatment. $1 panthers yeah put me down for one those after youve fed em for 3+ months.....

No i didn't have fecals on them and neither did the person that sold me them because it makes them infertile for 6 months. If they lived with what parasites they have its not going to kill them now. Also those parasites don't transfer to the eggs. I haven't read the thread on real hobbyist and fake ones yet. The 1$ chams expression was an exaggeration but what i was getting at is you can sell anything at the right price or get rid of it for free if you aren't able to care for it.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Kind of but not really ... my veileds last clutch was 51 eggs and my panther laid 28. It will cost more to raise the veileds as there are more mouths to feed and they also grow faster and eat more ...

It cost more to buy the panthers but I also just have spent $150 on my egg-bound female veiled and if the treatment doesn't work we will be spending more.

At the rate I am going I will be selling my veileds for $300 and the panthers for $50 ! At least that is what I would need to do to make any profit. I've never even come close to breaking even though ... I just enjoy keeping and raising them.

I do agree with the OP on some things though. There is negativity anytime someone does something different than what is parroted back and forth on here and questions don't always get answered as much as finances and motivation gets questioned. There is a lot of good information here but you really need to wade through some crap sometimes to get to it.

Well, so far the only person questioning motivation & finances is the original poster. I know how much its costs me to raise 30 panthers for 3+ months.(sometimes more than dont all grow at the same rate, Ive kept some for close to 5 mos before they were ready to go to homes) I want my pets as my breeders are my pets first and foremost to get the best quality food & vet care. Thats not cheap, I know just gutloading my feeders for 3 mos costs me over a $100.00 and then I hear this guy saying he can afford to sell them at $1 apiece. Well, I guess i could too if I didnt gutload and didnt give mine vet care when needed.

 

[reefercheefer]

I didn't say quit all together. I'm saying listen to the people FIRST so that they are less likely to DIE. You act like you're such an expert and know EVERYTHING, but you haven't even done it yet. You don't know everything that'll happen, there's many case scenarios. I hope for the sake of the CHAMS that you actually listen to the people who know what they're doing.

I know i am not expert and i know you arent either but who needs to be an expert on supplying the basic needs to a chameleon.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

No i didn't have fecals on them and neither did the person that sold me them because it makes them infertile for 6 months. If they lived with what parasites they have its not going to kill them now. Also those parasites don't transfer to the eggs. I haven't read the thread on real hobbyist and fake ones yet. The 1$ chams expression was an exaggeration but what i was getting at is you can sell anything at the right price or get rid of it for free if you aren't able to care for it.

A fecal is a test not a dewormer. And deworming is a practice you better learn quick if your gonna work with wc's. If you dont, you aint gonna have those wc's for very long.....

Quit worrying aout those breeder prices and start learning husbandry.

 

[Zubi]

Wait if you haven't de wormed those girls yet, does your boy have parasites now too. Because wasn't he CB?

 

[thephotoprincess]

Well, so far the only person questioning motivation & finances is the original poster. I know how much its costs me to raise 30 panthers for 3+ months.(sometimes more than dont all grow at the same rate, Ive kept some for close to 5 mos before they were ready to go to homes) I want my pets as my breeders are my pets first and foremost to get the best quality food & vet care. Thats not cheap, I know just gutloading my feeders for 3 mos costs me over a $100.00 and then I hear this guy saying he can afford to sell them at $1 apiece. Well, I guess i could too if I didnt gutload and didnt give mine vet care when needed.

not to drag this on but in many posts the first response to breeding questions is to discourage and to tell people to get more experience and tell them they won't be able to afford to feed babies. Often this comes from people with no actual experience who are just parroting things they have heard that may or may not be accurate ... I very much appreciate the answers from those with actual experience in a given situation and weigh that along with my actual experiences.

Whether I sell my babies for $1 or $250 I'm not making any money ... we have several chameleons we keep that aren't breeding as well as several rescues that we have spent money on vet bills and medications for. Everyone needs to eat and lights need to be changed and on and on ... I'm not going to be quitting my day job

PS I'm not going to sell my chameleons for $1 but encourage others to do so

 

[DavidBuchan]

I think the answers to your questions are fairly obvious. You are a knowledgeable amateur keeper who is breeding his first clutch as a hobby. The people who are in it for business as well as a keen interest in Chameleons need to make money from it or they won't be able to stay in business. The standard recommendations by people on this forum are not very often meant for people who have kept lizards since they were in diapers, but for people to have a good idea of possible difficulties before trying something. I've not seen much hating of breeding success on here at all.......
You have successfully kept wc Chams and got them to breed, but as yet you haven't spent the time and effort raising them to saleable age, finding buyers, all the extra stuff and hassle of admin for a business that adds price to a 'product'.
You are not worried about staying in business and making a living from this, so you talk flippantly about how much you earn and how little you could sell the chams for.
I don't complain that Coca Cola sells their beverages for more than it would cost me to make it at home. Part of the reason they get away with it is that there just aren't many people willing to put in the time and effort to make cheaper beverages for everybody - guess why?
I do agree that the 'pedigree' animal thing can get pretty silly but if people are willing to pay a bit extra for market hype then fine by me. It's the long-term possibility of inbreeding health problems and the discredited philosophy of racial superiority that I worry about, not the price

 

[Texas Panther Man]

not to drag this on but in many posts the first response to breeding questions is to discourage and to tell people to get more experience and tell them they won't be able to afford to feed babies. Often this comes from people with no actual experience who are just parroting things they have heard that may or may not be accurate ... I very much appreciate the answers from those with actual experience in a given situation and weigh that along with my actual experiences.

Whether I sell my babies for $1 or $250 I'm not making any money ... we have several chameleons we keep that aren't breeding as well as several rescues that we have spent money on vet bills and medications for. Everyone needs to eat and lights need to be changed and on and on ... I'm not going to be quitting my day job

PS I'm not going to sell my chameleons for $1 but encourage others to do so

I wasnt really questioning you, my responses are aimed at the op who seems to have it all figured out before hes even succeeded in hatching his first neonate. And I personally dont care if he gives the chams away. But I'd like to at least see that the breeders are well cared for and the proper steps have been taken PRIOR to breeding them to insure that the babies are born healthy and without complications for the female. This guys shown he's not willing to wait and perform the necessary tests to insure his breeders are healthy before he breeds them. Its one thing to wait and see if a wc female is gravid and let her lay a captive hatched clutch prior to deworming being done. Thats a common practice but for him to say he doesnt deworm because he doesnt want to wait to breed the animals in question.... Well, that shows me a lack of breeding ethics. And a breeder without breeding ethics can sell their panthers, veileds, jacksons or whatever for $1 all day long and I still wouldnt want one.

 

[thephotoprincess]

A fecal is a test not a dewormer. And deworming is a practice you better learn quick if your gonna work with wc's. If you dont, you aint gonna have those wc's for very long.....

Quit worrying aout those breeder prices and start learning husbandry.

I have never heard that deworming causes infertility for any length of time? does anyone know if that is true and is there more info on it somewhere?

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I havent heard it causes infertility I do know most ppl (myself inc.) wait a cpl of months min after deworming to let the animal recover post treatment.

 

[thephotoprincess]

I havent heard it causes infertility I do know most ppl (myself inc.) wait a cpl of months min after deworming to let the animal recover post treatment.

makes sense ... we've never have a problem with the veileds and panthers with worms and our only wild caughts are the melleri and we have no control over their breeding - they just don't.

(YET!)

 

[robmd1]

It seems to me that a thread like this comes along now an again in my few years here, its always the same panthers cost to much an how there goin breed panthers an sell em for 100 bucks or less... so far they all have been sadly mistaken, but were all still waiting to see them...
Myself its taken a couple years an a bit of money to get my lines to what i wanted, this isnt a business for me i breed a couple locales because i love the certin look of em an i think ive gotten them goin good and looking the way I want. Im here to pass great lines on to others but everything into it they could never be cheap chaameleons if there is even such a thing...

 

[reefercheefer]

It seems to me that a thread like this comes along now an again in my few years here, its always the same panthers cost to much an how there goin breed panthers an sell em for 100 bucks or less... so far they all have been sadly mistaken, but were all still waiting to see them...
Myself its taken a couple years an a bit of money to get my lines to what i wanted, this isnt a business for me i breed a couple locales because i love the certin look of em an i think ive gotten them goin good and looking the way I want. Im here to pass great lines on to others but everything into it they could never be cheap chaameleons if there is even such a thing...

I by no means plan to sell them for 1$ or 100. i was replying to texas ranger on what i would do if i wasnt able to afford thier care. Im putting all this time into them and the business minded person i am I will want to obviously get the most.

 

[reefercheefer]

I wasnt really questioning you, my responses are aimed at the op who seems to have it all figured out before hes even succeeded in hatching his first neonate. And I personally dont care if he gives the chams away. But I'd like to at least see that the breeders are well cared for and the proper steps have been taken PRIOR to breeding them to insure that the babies are born healthy and without complications for the female. This guys shown he's not willing to wait and perform the necessary tests to insure his breeders are healthy before he breeds them. Its one thing to wait and see if a wc female is gravid and let her lay a captive hatched clutch prior to deworming being done. Thats a common practice but for him to say he doesnt deworm because he doesnt want to wait to breed the animals in question.... Well, that shows me a lack of breeding ethics. And a breeder without breeding ethics can sell their panthers, veileds, jacksons or whatever for $1 all day long and I still wouldnt want one.

youve been on this forum for a couple years now so i assume your not going anywhere. And we will see in 7 months if i offer you a cham for 1$ that you wouldnt take it

 

[Wykd]

The OP's approach did nothing to impress me or win over my support. Actually all it did was put an asterix in my mind that I would never want to buy a cham from him. /shrug

Cost of cham babies = profit margin you want to place on the sale + cost of feeding + utilities used + equipment/supplies + (sum of your time to hatch/care for the cham's X what is your time worth) *excluding the cost of any vet visits*

BTW: 50k a year is not a lot of money and hardly warrants mentioning it in a post none the less. But I guess to someone of a relatively young age it may seem impressive. My 5yr old gets that way over a dollar also.

If your looking to alienate the community and turn people off and raise questions about your breeding ethics, SUCCESS! Had you choose your delivery method more and put more thought into the topic and arguments from both sides you may not off come off as arrogant and annoying as you did.

 

[Olimpia]

I found this thread very useful, actually. Now I (and hopefully others) know to avoid this person's business like the plague when he starts selling. I think that's either $1 or $300 better spent on someone else's chameleons.

That said, good reasons to be careful with WC chameleons:
1. Parasites.
- They may have been fine with their parasites in the wild but the move into captivity may weaken their system and allow those parasites to really tax the animal.
- Now the animal has laid eggs; not just a stressful event but a very taxing physical demand, which may also weaken the animal and allow the parasites to cause a lot of harm.
2. Acclimated?
- If your chameleons haven't been in captivity long you may not be successful in acclimating them to captivity long-term. They may be fine for now but the continuous stress of the dramatic change may send them spiraling the drain in a couple months.
3. Quarantined?
- How do you know that these new chameleons don't just have parasites, but something like a disease? If you don't quarantine these girls for a few months you're putting your other animals at risk as well. Allowing a new animal to come into contact with all your others immediately doesn't show a lot of responsibility.
4. Are the females even the locale you think they are?
- It's easy to sell whatever females you want and label them to fit a demand. By using WC females you now have the responsibility to grow out those babies to determine whether you are selling Ambilobes or not. Because it is unethical to knowingly sell a panther as a different locale than what it is. I have my doubts about your male being an Ambilobe at all, but that's a different matter altogether.

At the end of the day, do whatever you want. No one is forcing anyone to buy a chameleon for $300, or charge that much for one. You can find panthers for around $100 if you look long enough. It just depends what you're looking for. I just recommend reading up on a lot more chameleon husbandry before going further with this hobby.

 

[ataraxia]

How much did you pay for your wild caughts>? Where did you buy them? How are you for sure the females are the same locale as your male? Have they been proven yet? If not you will probably own these babies even longer than you want to prove them. Otherwise you will have a hard time selling them to many of the ENTHUSIAST here on the forums.

Good luck with your clutches but your thread title isnt exactly a good choice for what you are currently working towards....

Edit: I just realized what was said. Are we really frit fratting over a 75 dollar difference from yours to a IYO a over exaggerated breeders price? lol, i cant participate in this thread any longer...