No point in buying from breeders

[maxttu]

I guess I just don't understand why you'd want to come and piss on the very people that could be your biggest supporters and fans?

You can make a point, a statement and even an argument on your original rant, but you could have been a little more delicate and tactful.

I could be mistaken and please correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't had any successes in your endeavors yet, have you? Why not work your plan, correct any issues that may arise and then quietly change the industry one cham at a time?

Prove your plan, present your plan and make us believers.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I knew id get an Admin in here commenting. And why do you not suggest WC animals brad? Worst case is that they have parasites or are not social. Where do you think all these breeders started? People need to realize that animals are born to survive against elements. Some are not as hardy as others I understand but there are also cases where you do everything right and give an animal perfect care and they die.

I dont count my eggs before they hatch but as of right now i am sitting on 50 eggs and plan to sell 2 month olds for roughly between 150-200$ and hold back a few of the better ones and as many WC hatchlings as i can house to have another separate bloodline. IF you are concerned about my financial situation on how i will pay for feeders, ill have you know i make 50K a year. for a 23 year old thats not too shabby. Ive been keeping reptiles since I was in diapers.

That is not the worse case scenario that is the best case scenario. Upwards of fifty percent of the WC chameleons I have seen that come in to wholesalers and retailers are knocking on deaths door being (most being hopelessly beyond recovery) malnourished, dehydrated, and suffering from parasites more than normal due to being in their weakened state. Some of these animals do not require just one deparisitizing dose most may require 2-3 trips to the vet for deparitizing treatment. Just the same they have learned their ways to live in the wild and most come in to captivity being extremely skittish and overly aggressive to keepers (and never really belong in captivity). While captive bred chameleons being in care from their keepers since hatching normally are much less skittish and aggressive to keepers. This being said that make captive bred animals much more ideal for being kept in captivity.

With all this being posted many keepers (CIN members) in the 90's quit the hobby, due to the large volume (most of these died in large volumes at wholesaler) and terrible conditions that many shipments of chameleons were arriving and being kept in. It was was a tough learned lesson and as someone who remembers the way things were (still some sales are still that way today) absolutely would not recommend that the hobby forget this lesson learned and go back to old ways and think WC are the best option. Captive bred animals I absolutely say are more ideal than WC for a life in captivity and are worth the higher price.

Jeremy

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Here is a quick link to an older article with pictures as to why you should not endorse buying wild caught chameleons over captive bred chameleons. I would not support a hobby that relies excessively or at all on practices that treats imported chameleons this way and there are some that still import this way.

http://noimports.tripod.com/id23.htm

 

[Kmw]

I could see why people go to those breeders, it's not just about the chameleon. It's also about the name the breeder has worked hard to create for themselves by producing good looking chameleons, keeping healthy and happy chameleons, providing you with information and answering any questions you have pertaining to the chameleon, even how they go about posting on the boards here gives you insight to their chameleon practice and knowledge.

What your posts are saying to me(IMO, of course, this is not fact just opinion) about you are: Your not being very polite, by create a thread designed for "bashing" other chameleon breeders. Your not being very mature, most of your post are pretty childish and from the sounds of it you are judging and speaking from no experience in successful chameleon breeding.. Which leads to uneducated and willing to throw around information regardless of what you truly know about certain topics. This all tells me that if you had panther babies ready to sell, and I was in the market from this thread alone would be more than enough to stop me from purchasing one from you, even if I had to pay more elsewhere. You pay for what you get.

 

[Vegas Chad]

This guy has it all figured out... I enjoy this; more please!!!

 

[froggielog]

I know i am not expert and i know you arent either but who needs to be an expert on supplying the basic needs to a chameleon.

You sir are being very rude to these good hearted people. Who are you to judge who is an expert or not? We are here for the sole purpose of the well being of our chameleons, I would suggest you take some of this to heart....

 

[slim pik]

Wow you've created a bit of a stir. One piece of advice,lose the arrogance.In these posts there are nuggets of useful information.Whether you use them or not is up to you.People have travelled the path that you are about to embark on,there just giving you a heads up.As far as not needing to buy from a breeder isn't that what you are going to become.Your W.C.'s do them a favor and buy yourself some panacur.Good Luck

 

[Olimpia]

He's right, let him do whatever he wants. It's ok though. Now that over 800 hundred people have seen this thread and that it is now permanently available to anyone that searches him on the single largest chameleon forum in the US, he'll have a hard time selling anyone anything he produces.

That, added to his other very noob threads showing an extremely minimal understanding of what it is like to breed these animals (https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-long-after-laying-she-ready-breed-again-88068/, https://www.chameleonforums.com/dirt-mixture-88128/ <-- these are the basics of breeding and you don't even know them AS you're actively trying to do it. And you say you researched beforehand? Why do I smell BS?) he's not going to find any business on this forum. All it takes is anyone to search his username and his past threads and find that they're buying from someone who doesn't know and doesn't care to put in half the care that these animals require.

So you've accomplished what you set out to say. No point in bothering with breeders like you.

 

[Wykd]

From his initial posts even he has had that arrogance in his delivery so don't waste your breath because nobody will hold him down, or some crap like that I think.

You confused me to be honest you start off complaining about he price of 275.00
"I'm just seeing if I'm not the only one that doesn't hype over buying baby chams for outrageous prices like 275$ plus shipping just because some guy in Cali or Florida is the one producing it. "

Then you tell us you also want to maximize your profit.
"Im putting all this time into them and the business minded person i am I will want to obviously get the most."

I do not understand you hating on breeders when you in turn are wanting to do the same thing by your own admission.

I guess this was one of those finish the sentence threads wasn't it?

"No point in buying from breeders" insert your finisher here!

No point in buying from breeders who are unethical in their breeding program
No point in buying from breeders who are arrogant and confrontational
No point in buying from breeders who want to bash on their peer breeders

I am tired of typing this early /shrug.

 

[robmd1]

I figured this thread was goin to be like the ones before..
Can you say TROLL..

 

[DavidBuchan]

Thankfully we live in a free land and I can do what I want and your say is only heard on a specific reptile breeds forum page. Love how everyone bashes just like I said. Oh boo whoo I didn't screen 2 female wc panthers. What's going to happen? Nothing.you guys are Livin on ifs and maybes

Everyone is bashing because you are bashing - as pointed out already that is what you came here to do. I guess you are having fun with this, and I think and hope you are not as blase as you are coming across, but this is the silliest comment you have made in my opinion. It is clearly you who is confrontational and clearly you who is living on ifs and maybes. Hopefully you will get away with it, your animals stay healthy and you mature into a good and responsible breeder. Maybe you won't. Either way, you are currently sounding like you don't actually care - which is a lot worse than making money.
A little humility goes a long way. You are new to breeding, but not to reality you say? When did you learn that people are more likely to listen to you if you dismiss their opinions?

 

[reefercheefer]

That is not the worse case scenario that is the best case scenario. Upwards of fifty percent of the WC chameleons I have seen that come in to wholesalers and retailers are knocking on deaths door being (most being hopelessly beyond recovery) malnourished, dehydrated, and suffering from parasites more than normal due to being in their weakened state. Some of these animals do not require just one deparisitizing dose most may require 2-3 trips to the vet for deparitizing treatment. Just the same they have learned their ways to live in the wild and most come in to captivity being extremely skittish and overly aggressive to keepers (and never really belong in captivity). While captive bred chameleons being in care from their keepers since hatching normally are much less skittish and aggressive to keepers. This being said that make captive bred animals much more ideal for being kept in captivity.

With all this being posted many keepers (CIN members) in the 90's quit the hobby, due to the large volume (most of these died in large volumes at wholesaler) and terrible conditions that many shipments of chameleons were arriving and being kept in. It was was a tough learned lesson and as someone who remembers the way things were (still some sales are still that way today) absolutely would not recommend that the hobby forget this lesson learned and go back to old ways and think WC are the best option. Captive bred animals I absolutely say are more ideal than WC for a life in captivity and are worth the higher price.

Jeremy

the chams i got were not fresh off the boat. The owner held them for a month prior to sending me them. they arrive healthy, eating and drinking the first day and doing great so far.

 

[reefercheefer]

The best way to start a discussion online is to state an opinion. I am not trying to win anyone's support on the way I feel. Title says it all -I don't see a point in over-paying for name brand lines. most babies come out crappy looking as adults and i feel sorry for the peopple paying top dollar for crap colors. Most of you disagree saying this is the only route to go when its not. Also you guys bring up that I am a newb and doing everything wrong. I am a newb to breeding I wont lie but I have to be doing something right seeing that im sucessful in keeping all my animals alive.

 

[reefercheefer]

Here is a quick link to an older article with pictures as to why you should not endorse buying wild caught chameleons over captive bred chameleons. I would not support a hobby that relies excessively or at all on practices that treats imported chameleons this way and there are some that still import this way.

http://noimports.tripod.com/id23.htm

that picture sucks, i havent seen one like it yet but wouldn't doubt it happens all the time.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I figured this thread was goin to be like the ones before.. Can you say TROLL..

agreed.
...................

 

[reefercheefer]

He's right, let him do whatever he wants. It's ok though. Now that over 800 hundred people have seen this thread and that it is now permanently available to anyone that searches him on the single largest chameleon forum in the US, he'll have a hard time selling anyone anything he produces.

That, added to his other very noob threads showing an extremely minimal understanding of what it is like to breed these animals (https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-long-after-laying-she-ready-breed-again-88068/, https://www.chameleonforums.com/dirt-mixture-88128/ <-- these are the basics of breeding and you don't even know them AS you're actively trying to do it. And you say you researched beforehand? Why do I smell BS?) he's not going to find any business on this forum. All it takes is anyone to search his username and his past threads and find that they're buying from someone who doesn't know and doesn't care to put in half the care that these animals require.

So you've accomplished what you set out to say. No point in bothering with breeders like you.

There is no reason people would not buy from me because I dislike the biggest breeders pricing on them. as for the threads i started- i watched the video recommended and just top soil didn't seem suitable that's y i asked for a better mixture. I dont know the basic of breeding yet i have eggs incubating right? Just to prove that anyone can do what so called experts can- produce chameleons. They are still yet to hatch but now its a waiting game.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Troll troll troll troll. You're making up all these prejudices that you're rising above that don't even exist. And you still have a lot of research to do based on many of your comments on other threads. We'll see if you're even still around by the time your eggs try to hatch. Also, who cares? Your project is no more interesting than anyone else's (guess how many other people breed panthers too?) and I find it even less interesting since you're acting like such a brat. That's why I wouldn't buy from you.

 

[Goggles]

There is no reason people would not buy from me because I dislike the biggest breeders pricing on them. as for the threads i started- i watched the video recommended and just top soil didn't seem suitable that's y i asked for a better mixture. I dont know the basic of breeding yet i have eggs incubating right? Just to prove that anyone can do what so called experts can- produce chameleons. They are still yet to hatch but now its a waiting game.

All that you have proven so far is that you can purchase a gravid female and get her to lay eggs in a bucket...congrats!!

With your 23 years of wisdom and boat load of money you should already know when you move in to a "community" and piss off all your "neighbors" no one will help you when your house is on fire!!!

You are just a walking contradiction...fill the bowl and enjoy your day!!

 

[reefercheefer]

I guess whether or not if one or all of you wouldn't want a cham for me doesnt matter AT ALL. Even when i have them i wont have a million to go around. You guys have all this experience in breeding why don't you make your own or better yet buy a over-priced baby from the chameleon gods.

 

[froggielog]

As a response to your original thread title aren't you a breeder? I see no point in buying from you, if I know that the WC animals in your care weren't properly de-wormed and had gotten all of the parasites out of them. It doesn't matter if the babies aren't affected, it just shows what kind of chameleon person you are. How would you like it if you were just plucked out of a tree,placed in a cage and not given proper care, when care was available, not like in the wild.All I am saying is that the animal suffers, leaving what ever that had picked up in wild in them. Out there they had no means to cure it, but now they do and it is irresponsible for some one not to try to help them.

just my 2 cents