Nosy Faly's without red rain?
- Thread starter drcrossfire
- Start date
Kent67
Retired Moderator
I'm not at home so don't have a direct link but Thomas Althaus (redtom123) went there the last two years in a row and has pictures and descriptions on his website of them as all having the "red rain." He also made a similar statement on the forums about "rainless" specimens not being from Nosy Faly from what he's seen there. The exporter I referred to has had several discussions about the locale on his Facebook page. Not going to name names but I will say I've known of him as a reptile exporter in Antananarivo since before the 1995 trade suspension and a lot of people here are friends with him on FB.
I'll have to look into that too. My statement was just an assumption based on geography and the variation I've seen with other locales.
ataraxia
Avid Member
I think this is the site you speak of: http://www.pantherchameleon.de/madagascar_chameleons/furcifer-pardalis-madagascar?q=node/78/
With no backing and just a complete opinion from observations. I personally have to agree with Brad. There is variation from what we see now and even in the pics from this mans site. Gauging from every other locale. Logic tells me Faly is no different and has more variance than what some are evidently willing to entertain.
With no backing and just a complete opinion from observations. I personally have to agree with Brad. There is variation from what we see now and even in the pics from this mans site. Gauging from every other locale. Logic tells me Faly is no different and has more variance than what some are evidently willing to entertain.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Of course there is variation. Remember a few years ago when everyone but a few people thought it was impossible for Faly's to be green? That has been shown to be false now. Sure, there's variation but if Tom Althaus, all the guys from the Tanala Horizons trips, or an exporter who's been in that business in Madagascar for 20+ years and was also the first to send the locale to the US had seen a single Nosy Be-looking specimen on or from Nosy Faly....don'tcha think someone would have mentioned it by now rather than what seems to be consensus that the opposite is true? (ie. that males from the locale all exhibit "red rain" that is different from Nosy Be's)
ataraxia
Avid Member
The fact is a guided tour is exactly what it is. Do you honestly think they see the whole island? A guided tour better not disappoint its customers that came half way around the world and paid good money for. Ever been on paid hunts?
For the exporter...I cant even go here. If money is involved he is going to send us the best representatives from the area. Do you honestly think he will send specimens that look like nosey be when he is getting a high dollar for these red spotted paradalis?
How long did these guys (except the exporter) spend on the island? Did they really observe the whole land? Did they go off the tour and really dig into the land.
Edit: Nothing is wrong with nosy be's, i own a few myself.
For the exporter...I cant even go here. If money is involved he is going to send us the best representatives from the area. Do you honestly think he will send specimens that look like nosey be when he is getting a high dollar for these red spotted paradalis?
How long did these guys (except the exporter) spend on the island? Did they really observe the whole land? Did they go off the tour and really dig into the land.
Edit: Nothing is wrong with nosy be's, i own a few myself.
clarkrw3
New Member
Like Kent said, sure there is variation and I am friends on FB and have discussed this with someone that actually owns a home on Nosy Faly and the variations have there limits and saying they are present without red is just not true.
When i look at these things i look from a Biology perspective since that is my background. You have to look from a genetic pool and population dynamics. When looking at the nosy locales the variation is very different than to the mainland locales. This is due to genetic isolation. The smaller the island the smaller the variation, and the less genetic diversity. Nosy Faly is MUCH smaller than Nosy Be( 25-30x smaller), and Nosy Mitsio which is further removed from the mainland. Saying that a Nosy Faly is one without rain is like saying a Mitsio is one without the red eyes.
The mainland locales, even though they are geographically isolated are much much less isolated than the island locales.
When i look at these things i look from a Biology perspective since that is my background. You have to look from a genetic pool and population dynamics. When looking at the nosy locales the variation is very different than to the mainland locales. This is due to genetic isolation. The smaller the island the smaller the variation, and the less genetic diversity. Nosy Faly is MUCH smaller than Nosy Be( 25-30x smaller), and Nosy Mitsio which is further removed from the mainland. Saying that a Nosy Faly is one without rain is like saying a Mitsio is one without the red eyes.
The mainland locales, even though they are geographically isolated are much much less isolated than the island locales.
ataraxia
Avid Member
The exporter you guys ARE referring to is Olaf. Id recommend entertaining him with these questions then getting back to this thread and the rest of the faly threads with what he is going to tell you... Maybe listening to him will clear all the opinions, thoughts and parroted information that rolls through the faly threads.
Being isolated would make picture perfect faly's even less controlled. Color/pattern variation happen from isolating which leads to interbreeding. Again i havent been to the island to see for myself but im not going to act like a spotless faly isnt in existence.
Being isolated would make picture perfect faly's even less controlled. Color/pattern variation happen from isolating which leads to interbreeding. Again i havent been to the island to see for myself but im not going to act like a spotless faly isnt in existence.
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Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
Clark is right, you get less diversity in an island situation. And this is especially true the smaller the island is. It wouldn't even surprise me if they shared a lot more genetic material with each other than you would see between two randomly chosen individuals from the mainland.
But, it's also fairly close to the mainland, so you may be getting migration (intentional or unintentional) more than we know.
I don't care about the Faly thing, I just wanted to lend support to Clark. I majored in conservation ecology, so I know about population genetics.
But, it's also fairly close to the mainland, so you may be getting migration (intentional or unintentional) more than we know.
I don't care about the Faly thing, I just wanted to lend support to Clark. I majored in conservation ecology, so I know about population genetics.
clarkrw3
New Member
Not to worry the question has been asked and the photo has been sent
. Just waiting to hear. I honestly don't see myself as a parrot, but thanks for the complement on my Rok.
clarkrw3
New Member
Thanks Olimpia. This small genetic variation could be the reason that Faly's tend to be smaller, grow slower and have a general lower survival rate/hatch rate when compared to mainland locales.
drcrossfire
Avid Member
Looking at the variation to locales due to genetic isolation indicates that the populations have been separate for a good period of time. But.... It hasn't been long enough to cause speciation to occur.
Genetic isolation may be fairly recent, which means the genes for certain patterning and color may still be inherited. Anomalies may make it so that the color patterns for nosy be is found in the populous of Faly.
With selective breeding.... I would bet that nosy Faly pure line could produce a nosy be looking line. And it probably wouldn't be hard.
Genetic isolation may be fairly recent, which means the genes for certain patterning and color may still be inherited. Anomalies may make it so that the color patterns for nosy be is found in the populous of Faly.
With selective breeding.... I would bet that nosy Faly pure line could produce a nosy be looking line. And it probably wouldn't be hard.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
I'm glad you asked! Based on what Tom has told me he's been going to Madagascar at least once a year for quite a while. He never does "guided tours." He goes where HE wants to go with a Malagasy man whom personal friends of mine used numerous times in the 1990's. They specifically go looking for chameleons.
Same with Tanala Horizon. It's a group of herp-interested people, lots of cham people, and they go where they want to go, with Malagasy assistance.
Think about the condition (health, hydration, coloration) of most of the pardalis imports you've seen....ever. Do you honestly think the exporters over there give half a rip what shows up in the US? It's not like they're boxed up and shipped on a boat for 30 days to get here. Many don't even come labeled with locale info. With an extremely limited quota (compared to demand) there's no refunds and we get what we get.
ataraxia
Avid Member
Depends on how much you spend and how well you know the exporter
You kinda get what you pay for lol.
clarkrw3
New Member
I suppose we should use that logic to throw out everything we know about any locale
I really do not understand the whole thing with NF. I mean NO other locale gets this kind of drama and debate. I mean when Mitsios showed with blue bars it was quickly accepted they were crossed and not pure, yet everyone always tries to justify anything and everything within the Faly locale. I just do not get it...
robmd1
Avid Member
I suppose we should use that logic to throw out everything we know about any locale
im with you rob i dont get any of this... i do have a question though would this thread be this long if the op woulda posted a pic in the beginin askin what people thought of his nosy be? not mentioning the word faly would any of you a guess it was a faly? honest answers please
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