Questioning my vet

[MantisFTW]

Hello all, its been a while. My little Specs is almost 3 years old now.

I came here because I have to question my vet. I was bringing in Specs to see if he was healthy enough to breed, I was thinking about getting him a girlfriend. The doctor said that Specs was fine and good to breed. I even got a free exam out of the visit and it was great. However some of the advice he gave me contradicts some of which I learned on here...


He looked at Specs for a few moments, checked his mouth, and weighed him. I asked him about Specs's clumsyness and the fact that I still have to hand feed crickets because he hasnt been able to catch them himself ever since he was diagnosed with MBD (that was when he was 1, he was since treated for it, but has never really been the same since then, and thats what I told him).
He asked me what I was feeding him, the first thing I said was crickets (he stopped me right there before I could continue) and went on about how I shouldnt be feeding him crickets because they're too high in phosphorus and that I need to be feeding him flies instead, or other softer bugs. Now I know blue bottle flies are good for chams, but do they make a good staple?

I told him that I was also feeding superworms, and I tried dubias roaches for a while, but it didnt last because its hard to successfully breed them in my house. (I will be trying again to give him plus- and especially- the future female more variety in their diets, dont worry).

Anyway, I mentioned that the better bugs were difficult for me to get my hands on, and he told me to catch them in my back yard. I asked him about pesticides or parasites, and he said if you leave the bug in a jar for a day and it doesnt die, then it wouldnt have been infected with anything. Is that really true?

I also wanted to get Specs tested for parasites, which I couldnt do because he didnt poop for me until AFTER we left the vet, so Im going to have to catch it next time.

But yeah, if I could get some of this information cleared up, I would much appreciate it. Thanks all!

 

[Lpsouth1978]

It actually sounds to me like this vet is quite knowledgable, that is not to say I fully agree with everything he told.

It is true that crickets are high in phosphorus, but not to the extent that well gut loaded crickets are a poor choice for a staple food source.

Also, it is true that if you put the bugs in a jar for a day and they do not die, that they likely did not come into contact with pesticides, however this does not mean they have no parasites. You also have no idea what they have been feeding on. Some plants, like tomato plants, are actually toxic to chams.

Blue bottle flies are a great feeder, but I do not believe they are a fantastic staple. They are more difficult to properly gut load, and I think they should be offered only as a treat, though someone else may feel differently. My guy had his first taste of blue bottle flies about 2 weeks ago and has now gone on a food strike. He only wants the flies, but I am out, so he will have to eat something else.

I hope this helped to answer some of your questions and maybe ease some concerns.

 

[Lovereps]

What troubles me is that Specs is clumsy and unable to use his tongue.
I have heard of chams not regaining tongue use after severe MBD but the continued clumsiness is troubling.
A PM to one of the vets who contributes to the forum may get you the answers you seek: Ferretinmyshoes or Dr O or Dr Wheelock are the 3 that I know of.
Perhaps he still has a calcium deficiency or another nutrient deficiency.
Low calcium levels do cause clumsiness.
It isn't just low calcium intake or poor calcium to phosphorus ratios which lead to MBD.
If the UV bulb isn't replaced every 6 months, your cham doesn't get enough UV because the bulbs emit less and less UV while still lighting brightly.
In other instances, too low temps impede nutrient absorbtion, leading to deficiencies.

If you haven't already read this post by veterinarian Ferretinmyshoes, you should have a look because it has much good info https://www.chameleonforums.com/what-metabolic-bone-disease-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/


Your vet isn't totally wrong about crickets but that having been said, crickets are a good feeder to make up part of a cham's diet, if they are dusted with calcium to compensate for their high phosphorus content.
No. Blue bottle flies as a staple is not recommended.

No single feeder should make up the majority of the diet.
In the wild chams have an ever changing variety of insects to eat and those insects are eating different things.
We really can't duplicate that exactly, so the next best thing is this;
A variety of feeders which are fed a nutritious diet and, of course, lightly dusted according to the supplement schedule shown in the caresheet for their species (click Resources tab above) .



Very few commercially available feeders are calcium: and phosphorus balanced but there are some like phoenixworms and silkworms.

Sandrachameleon has written quite a bit of trustworthy info about cham nutrition and here are a couple of good blogs she has written https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/407-gutloading-isnt-just-crickets-roaches-gutload-everything.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/213-use-wild-caught-insects.html

The forum's chameleon food page https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/ has more info on feeders but even it has a link to Sandrachameleon's pages

FWIW, most of us do not have more than 2 or 3 types of feeders available locally, so we buy the "better" feeders, as you put it, online.
Here are some good links
http://www.greatlakeshornworm.com/
http://www.mulberryfarms.com/
http://www.coastalsilkworms.com/

There shouldn't be any problem with simply dropping off a fecal sample for parasite testing, since he was just there for an examination.
That's what I would do.

 

[MantisFTW]

I do dust and gut load my crickets, I use the repashy calcium plus and bug burger. Specs has also been in an outdoor cage all summer soaking up the good UV. I change my bulbs at the 6 month mark as well (although typically they burn out before then anyway). I was using the zilla slimline fixture, but im going to try switching to the 5.0 UVB 13 watt reptisun bulb with a dome fixture when fall starts hitting and its time to bring him back indoors. The only thing I can think of is that it must be his diet, which really isnt much besides crickets and superworms. I did have another panther though that seemed to be doing perfectly fine that I had for about 2 years, up until I found his cage door wide open with no chameleon inside one day last month.

Specs isnt really as clumsy as he used to be... he can get a good grip on branches in his enclosure and he only ever grabs his legs anymore when I accidentally hold him awkwardly, and when he does grab his leg he doesn't hold on to his leg anymore either as if he realized his mistake. When hes climbing on my arm though he feels like he might fall, and if I let someone else hold him, I tell them to be careful and have a hand under him just in case. I think the time under some real sun has done a lot for him, and when I order the good bugs and maybe even start a roach and silkworm colony things should get even better. Specs did have the unfortunate fate of being my very first reptile, which probably explains why he is the way he is. I've since learned a lot though and have owned other reptiles and gotten a bit more experienced.

I can post some pictures of him if necessary. I can get head shots, elbow/knee shots, fully body, whatever you want. I looked at his joints though and they appear to be fine, and the doctor didnt say anything either. Im really thinking that a good variety diet change could fix most of this, and some of it might just be lasting effects of when he did have MBD, such as his tongue not working correctly.

Thank you for your posts, I might give one of those doctors a try.

 

[Saldarya]

Hey there. Nowhere in LA do you live? Shoot me a message and I can help you get a hold of the feeders ya need as I live here also.

Bobby