RI causes and Baytril course length?

[Flickmycham]

Hello everyone,

My chameleon went to the vet for a minor respiratory infection, she heard just a little rattling breathing. But when the vet looked in his mouth she said she seen “maybe a little bit of stomatitis” no pus, just a bit of yellowing discoloration on the sides in the back of the mouth and some excess saliva possibly from the RI. She mentioned that she sees RI caused by low humidity (dang Michigan winters) and said to spray more to up the humidity. Also going to be opening the windows more to the chameleon room as it’s about to be summer to get plenty of airflow in the room (something I won’t be able to do once winter rolls around again). Also mentioned it could be lack of Vit A and told me to give his Repashy multivitamin with LoD every week instead of every other week. Anyone have any experience or educated opinions on low humidity causing RI?

Some background: he had a minor respiratory infection back in February and was given 10 days of Baytril 25mg/ml strength, 0.03 dose every 24 hours, and he weighs 110g. He tolerated the antibiotic really well and after literally a day never had another sign of RI again until April.. (I still gave him the full 10 day course btw).

The vet I went to this time originally in the exam room said we will do 14 days of Baytril but when they gave me the medicine they said she changed it to 28 days of Baytril 68mg/ml strength, 0.01 dose every 24 hours (still weighed 110g). 28 days seems like a lot when Baytril is known to be hard on their kidneys and liver so I’m wondering for all who has experience with Baytril, what kind of course lengths does your vet recommend and for what ailment?

I wasn’t able to get a picture of my chameleons mouth bc he hates to open it and it was too hard to snap a picture while I did manage to take a peak but it looks like this picture I found online (the second photo) except his teeth are white, only the back of the mouth has some yellow. Is this normal coloration??

 

[Flickmycham]

•Almost 2 year old male panther ambilobe chameleon

•Everyday he gets access to 2 trees that I put next to enclosure. So I handle him every day to put him back in his house from that tree. Loves to be on the top of my head lol he’s very friendly.

•He eats about 5 dubia roaches every other day, with some black soldier fly larvae and flies. Sometimes feed him wax worm moths or hawkmoths. Hornworms as treats occasionally

•I have a mist king that sprays the left side of his enclosure. And I use a spray mist bottle to mist his plant under his basking spot (the part of the enclosure that doesn’t get hit by the mist king). Daytime humidity during winter ~30%. Now that it’s been spring for the last few weeks it’s about 40%.

•Dust at least one bug with Acadia Earth-Pro A every feeding. Dust with Repashy multivitamin with LoD every other Friday.

•His poop looks healthy with light yellow-white urate on the end. Has been going every few days. Tested negative for parasites on September 1st 2021 and May 2nd 2022.

•Zen Habitats 4’x2’x4’ hybrid enclosure (I put screens on the sides, so the front and back are solid but the sides and top and vent screen on the bottom front are screen.

•I use a linear T5 5.0 UVB bulb. Heating I use a incandescent 75-100 watt light bulb depending on the season/weather. It’s ~85-90°F at his basking spot. ~70-75° F ambient temperature. Lights are on from 9:00am-9:00pm.

•Golden pothos, TI plant and dragon trees. A umbrella tree, ficus, hibiscus, and majesty palm outside his enclosure.
*I bought fake flowers (5) made from a soft plastic for his cage from Pangea in January and am wondering if that is possibly causing a problem (it was the only new thing). I cleaned them very well when I first got them and again after he got sick the first time.

•The enclosure is on a 2’ tall cabinet so total enclosure is 6’ tall. Not a high traffic area, it is in my bedroom.

•I am located in mid-Michigan

Problem: 2 RI’s. First February 12 and second April 3rd. Possible slight mouth rot? Deep cleaned everything very well after his first RI.

 

[Beman]

I am not a vet but I personally would not use baytril for 28 days... @JacksJill has experience with meds and may be able to assist more.


Yellow in the mouth is normal with Panthers like in that second photo you posted.

Are you fogging at all?

Respiratory infections are typically associated with lack of correct air flow, high humidity, and fogging. Although bacteria in a cage that is stagnant can cause issues as well. But you said most of your enclosure is screen so that is a ton of airflow.

I do not see anything that stands out in your husbandry except 90 is a bit hot and I would not go over 85 for basking temps.

 

[MissSkittles]

Can you post some pics of your entire enclosure? Sometimes pics show things that words can’t.

 

[Flickmycham]

I am not a vet but I personally would not use baytril for 28 days... @JacksJill has experience with meds and may be able to assist more.


Yellow in the mouth is normal with Panthers like in that second photo you posted.

Are you fogging at all?

Respiratory infections are typically associated with lack of correct air flow, high humidity, and fogging. Although bacteria in a cage that is stagnant can cause issues as well. But you said most of your enclosure is screen so that is a ton of airflow.

I do not see anything that stands out in your husbandry except 90 is a bit hot and I would not go over 85 for basking temps.

Ok so I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have any stomatitis if that yellow is normal.

I do not fog at all, I sometimes use a humidifier (which I clean well) in the room at night and aim it in the cage and it does bump up the night humidity to around 60%.

Because of my dog, I unfortunately have to keep the door closed 24/7 and since it was winter also the windows were closed, so it was a very closed environment without much airflow even though the cage is mostly screen. Any thoughts on this?

I had bumped up the heat when he got sick to try to knock the infection out :/ I’ll lower the temps back down.

Today was his 10th day of Baytril and he hasn’t had any RI symptoms since the second day of treatment. Debating on stopping the baytril now or going to 14 days..

 

[MissSkittles]

Today was his 10th day of Baytril and he hasn’t had any RI symptoms since the second day of treatment. Debating on stopping the baytril now or going to 14 days.

So I’m not a vet or even a vet tech, but I am a nurse for humans and would say that it would be best to follow the entire prescribed course of antibiotics (unless there are apparent side effects or other conditions that warrant stopping & then you’d be best to notify your vet). Even though there was a good deal of time between RIs, I was thinking that maybe the first time the whole infection wasn’t eradicated and so it came back.

 

[Flickmycham]

Can you post some pics of your entire enclosure? Sometimes pics show things that words can’t.

Here you go. Flick’s colors have been more muted since starting the Baytril

 

[Flickmycham]

So I’m not a vet or even a vet tech, but I am a nurse for humans and would say that it would be best to follow the entire prescribed course of antibiotics (unless there are apparent side effects or other conditions that warrant stopping & then you’d be best to notify your vet). Even though there was a good deal of time between RIs, I was thinking that maybe the first time the whole infection wasn’t eradicated and so it came back.

I am also worried about it maybe not having been fully cleared up from the first time though it was quite a long amount of time with absolutely no symptoms. I’m a clinical lab scientist so I do agree that it’s always best to do the full round of antibiotics but I’m doubting the vets recommendation. From what I read, a 28 day course of Baytril is usually used for very advanced infections such as bone infections and not RIs especially mild ones :/

 

[jannb]

I‘ve kept chameleons for a long time and always used vets with good chameleon knowledge. One vet hated Baytril and refused to use it but the ones that did use it always had the dose from 7 to 10 days.

 

[Flickmycham]

I‘ve kept chameleons for a long time and always used vets with good chameleon knowledge. One vet hated Baytril and refused to use it but the ones that did use it always had the dose from 7 to 10 days.

In your experience, even for a ‘recurrent’ RI, they would still probably recommend a course of 7-10 days?

 

[jannb]

They would do a culture and sensitivity test and see which antibiotic responded to the type of infection my chameleon had. Normally, they would change the antibiotic to something that worked better.

 

[Flickmycham]

They would do a culture and sensitivity test and see which antibiotic responded to the type of infection my chameleon had. Normally, they would change the antibiotic to something that worked better.

Gotcha, I asked if they could do a culture but she said they would have to fill the lungs with fluid and then test the fluid, is that what your vet would do? The respiratory infection was very minor so I didn’t want to do all that to my little guy.

Do you think it’s likely that he never fully recovered from the first infection? I’m not sure what to think but I know that he had such a quick response and recovery (within a day of the first dose) with the original infection and also now with the most recent one.

 

[MissSkittles]

Here you go. Flick’s colors have been more muted since starting the Baytril

Ok..looks good and I see only a clean and very nice enclosure.

 

[Flickmycham]

Ok..looks good and I see only a clean and very nice enclosure.

Thank you.. I try! He’s my pride and joy, I’ve been at a loss of words at figuring out why he got sick the first time and now the second time! The only thing in his environment that changed was that I had bought these fake flowers made from a soft flexible plastic for his enclosure from Pangea in January and am wondering if that’s somehow at fault. They’re just surrounding the corners of the enclosure and he doesn’t really get into contact with them. I cleaned them very well when I first got them and again after he got sick the first time.

I have added bee pollen to his diet (I’m sprinkling it on the dubias food) because I’ve read that it may help strengthen their immune system. Have you heard of this?

 

[jannb]

Gotcha, I asked if they could do a culture but she said they would have to fill the lungs with fluid and then test the fluid, is that what your vet would do? The respiratory infection was very minor so I didn’t want to do all that to my little guy.

Do you think it’s likely that he never fully recovered from the first infection? I’m not sure what to think but I know that he had such a quick response and recovery (within a day of the first dose) with the original infection and also now with the most recent one.

If they get him on the correct meds he should recover and the RI should not come back as long as it’s completely gone. My vets have done a culture to make sure the infection is gone after the antibiotic is finished. A culture is when they swab the back of the throat and send it out to the lab for a culture. Your vet was talking about a lung wash. That‘s dangerous for a chameleon. I’d never recommend that.

 

[kinyonga]

I would be very skeptical of a lung wash in a chameleon. Just so you know, I've never had one done to a chameleon and I’m not a vet but I still wouldn’t feel safe having it done.

Also, I have heard on occasion that baytril has been used for longer than two weeks without any problems…I seem to remember it being done to a couple of my WC chameleons many years ago.

Also, one chameleon I had that was put on baytril would do a strange colour and pattern each time I gave the baytril to her. I never saw it happen with another one. BTW it was NOT a panther.

Is your cage near a window?

 

[Flickmycham]

Yeah she made it seem like a regular culture wasn’t possible with chameleons for some reason. It’s good to hear that it is in fact possible.

I think I’m going to stop the Baytril and make today the last dose (today was his 10th dose). And if it comes back, I will definitely be getting a different antibiotic, although I believe all the other antibiotics for chameleons are injections?

 

[Flickmycham]

I would be very skeptical of a lung wash in a chameleon. Just so you know, I've never had one done to a chameleon and I’m not a vet but I still wouldn’t feel safe having it done.

Also, I have heard on occasion that baytril has been used for longer than two weeks without any problems…I seem to remember it being done to a couple of my WC chameleons many years ago.

Also, one chameleon I had that was put on baytril would do a strange colour and pattern each time I gave the baytril to her. I never saw it happen with another one. BTW it was NOT a panther.

Is your cage near a window?

It is right next to a window. It is very well insulated though, with no cold breezes nor drafts from it during the winter.

But yes when that was her response to me asking about doing a culture, I was like nope nevermind

 

[Beman]

Ok so I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have any stomatitis if that yellow is normal.

I do not fog at all, I sometimes use a humidifier (which I clean well) in the room at night and aim it in the cage and it does bump up the night humidity to around 60%.

Because of my dog, I unfortunately have to keep the door closed 24/7 and since it was winter also the windows were closed, so it was a very closed environment without much airflow even though the cage is mostly screen. Any thoughts on this?

I had bumped up the heat when he got sick to try to knock the infection out :/ I’ll lower the temps back down.

Today was his 10th day of Baytril and he hasn’t had any RI symptoms since the second day of treatment. Debating on stopping the baytril now or going to 14 days..

Get a child safe door you can put up. I bought one for about 50 bucks off amazon that has a swing door that locks but I can get open and my dog can not. Because you really need moving air... Stagnant air in the room will not be helpful.

Make sure the humidifier is a cool mist and not warm mist.

 

[kinyonga]

Even though you think being near the window is not a problem, I would move it away from the window.