RI?

[TheAmazingGerby]

Just last week my cham was on a bit of a hunger strike. We had to take him out of his enclosure to feed him, and even then he'd only eat maybe two or three crickets a day. He's been doing a lot better and eating a lot more than usual, but these past few days, but lately, he's been gaping and making popping noises.

I'm worried because there are no vets around me that I trust enough with chameleons. I live in a really small town and no one he specializes in herps enough for me to trust them with a diagnosis.

I don't really know what to do any more. I know that he NEEDS to go to a vet, despite just being at one with a diagnosis of a clean bill of health. It seems like I've just been having a lot of troubles with him. I love him so much and want him to get the best care, but I work all day and go to school when I'm not a work, and that leaves very little time to make a vet trip which would be a 4 hour drive at the least.

At the moment I am trying to heat his cage. I have a space heater pointed at it.

 

[jannb]

Just last week my cham was on a bit of a hunger strike. We had to take him out of his enclosure to feed him, and even then he'd only eat maybe two or three crickets a day. He's been doing a lot better and eating a lot more than usual, but these past few days, but lately, he's been gaping and making popping noises.

I'm worried because there are no vets around me that I trust enough with chameleons. I live in a really small town and no one he specializes in herps enough for me to trust them with a diagnosis.

I don't really know what to do any more. I know that he NEEDS to go to a vet, despite just being at one with a diagnosis of a clean bill of health. It seems like I've just been having a lot of troubles with him. I love him so much and want him to get the best care, but I work all day and go to school when I'm not a work, and that leaves very little time to make a vet trip which would be a 4 hour drive at the least.

At the moment I am trying to heat his cage. I have a space heater pointed at it.

Yes, he needs to see a vet for a culture and sensitivity test to see which antibiotic will work on the type of infection he has. Where do you live? I might be able to find you a closer vet. I use to have to drive 4 hours and with traffic sometime longer to see our vet. Now we have moved and he's only an hour away.

What's his basking temp. now? I would recommend keeping him warm until you get him to the vet.

 

[TheAmazingGerby]

Yes, he needs to see a vet for a culture and sensitivity test to see which antibiotic will work on the type of infection he has. Where do you live? I might be able to find you a closer vet. I use to have to drive 4 hours and with traffic sometime longer to see our vet. Now we have moved and he's only an hour away.

What's his basking temp. now? I would recommend keeping him warm until you get him to the vet.

I live in Wisconsin. His basking temp is normally 85, but when added with the heat of the space heater, it's mid 90s. The humidity depletes fast tho.

 

[jannb]

Try calling around to this list of reptile vets.
http://thereptilereport.com/wisconsin-reptile-veterinary-directory/

 

[TheAmazingGerby]

Try calling around to this list of reptile vets.
http://thereptilereport.com/wisconsin-reptile-veterinary-directory/

Thank you so much!!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Yes, he needs to see a vet for a culture and sensitivity test to see which antibiotic will work on the type of infection he has. Where do you live? I might be able to find you a closer vet. I use to have to drive 4 hours and with traffic sometime longer to see our vet. Now we have moved and he's only an hour away.

What's his basking temp. now? I would recommend keeping him warm until you get him to the vet.

@TheAmazingGerby and @jannb I've addressed this before and will start a new thread when I have answers from the exotic veterinary pathologist that the San Antonio Zoo uses.

In my experience with vets (and human doctors for that matter), the standard treatment for something like a respiratory infection is to prescribe a "broad spectrum" antibiotic. They do not culture, and when they do it is triggered by a for a specific set of circumstances such as the inherent value of the ill animal, the collection it is a part of, or that the disease process does not have an obvious cause. "Broad spectrum" means that the antibiotic is effective against a broad spectrum of bacteria.

Testing and culturing is both time consuming and costly.

How are you going to get the test sample? To my knowledge, the only accurate way to get bacteria from the lungs is to do a lung wash. A lung wash is when they flush fluid into the trachea down to the lungs (maybe it goes into the lungs, not sure) and retrieve whatever bacteria is down near the infection, deep in the respiratory system. Testing saliva will be testing bacteria in the mouth that will be completely unrelated to the infection in the lungs. I can't imagine it is going to be cheap.

I do not believe for a moment that it is standard veterinary practice to culture before prescribing. It isn't with humans, either.

The risk, the huge risk, of continuing to recommend culturing every infection to pet owners is that they will not seek ANY treatment. I vet visit and a series of antibiotics will cost very little, less than $100, sometimes substantially less. Add a lungwash and culture and you are getting up to a very hefty vet bill. You will have pathology--that will probably be at a minimum of $100 but probably $200. You will have a procedure to get the sample. Now you have a vet bill that is hundreds of dollars.

Faced with a vet bill of hundreds of dollars, many people will choose not to treat at all.

By continuing to recommend "culture and sensitivity testing" you are dooming many treatable chameleons to death.

@TheAmazingGerby Find a vet and get your baby on antibiotics. If the broad spectrum antibiiotic doesn't work, you'll know in two days. The vet can then change to another broad spectrum antibiotic that will treat the other common family of bacteria. (Some broad spectrum antibiotics work on Gram Positive bacteria but won't work on Gram negative bacteria. Other broad spectrum antibitotics are the opposite, working on Gram negative but not Gram positive.)

 

[TheAmazingGerby]

@TheAmazingGerby and @jannb I've addressed this before and will start a new thread when I have answers from the exotic veterinary pathologist that the San Antonio Zoo uses.

In my experience with vets (and human doctors for that matter), the standard treatment for something like a respiratory infection is to prescribe a "broad spectrum" antibiotic. They do not culture, and when they do it is triggered by a for a specific set of circumstances such as the inherent value of the ill animal, the collection it is a part of, or that the disease process does not have an obvious cause. "Broad spectrum" means that the antibiotic is effective against a broad spectrum of bacteria.

Testing and culturing is both time consuming and costly.

How are you going to get the test sample? To my knowledge, the only accurate way to get bacteria from the lungs is to do a lung wash. A lung wash is when they flush fluid into the trachea down to the lungs (maybe it goes into the lungs, not sure) and retrieve whatever bacteria is down near the infection, deep in the respiratory system. Testing saliva will be testing bacteria in the mouth that will be completely unrelated to the infection in the lungs. I can't imagine it is going to be cheap.

I do not believe for a moment that it is standard veterinary practice to culture before prescribing. It isn't with humans, either.

The risk, the huge risk, of continuing to recommend culturing every infection to pet owners is that they will not seek ANY treatment. I vet visit and a series of antibiotics will cost very little, less than $100, sometimes substantially less. Add a lungwash and culture and you are getting up to a very hefty vet bill. You will have pathology--that will probably be at a minimum of $100 but probably $200. You will have a procedure to get the sample. Now you have a vet bill that is hundreds of dollars.

Faced with a vet bill of hundreds of dollars, many people will choose not to treat at all.

By continuing to recommend "culture and sensitivity testing" you are dooming many treatable chameleons to death.

@TheAmazingGerby Find a vet and get your baby on antibiotics. If the broad spectrum antibiiotic doesn't work, you'll know in two days. The vet can then change to another broad spectrum antibiotic that will treat the other common family of bacteria. (Some broad spectrum antibiotics work on Gram Positive bacteria but won't work on Gram negative bacteria. Other broad spectrum antibitotics are the opposite, working on Gram negative but not Gram positive.)

Thank you, thank you. I can't thank you enough for this!

 

[jannb]

I still recommend asking for a culture and sensitivity test because if the antibiotic does not work and you keep guessing at which one might work, your chameleon may get weaker and even die before you get him on the correct antibiotic. My vets are both highly experienced with chameleons and they do have me give an antibiotic while they wait for the culture results to come back which usually takes 5 to 6 days. Then they call and have me change the antibiotic to the once that this particular infection will work on. A few times in the past 13 years they have guessed correctly but normally they have to change it.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I still recommend asking for a culture and sensitivity test because if the antibiotic does not work and you keep guessing at which one might work, your chameleon may get weaker and even die before you get him on the correct antibiotic. My vets are both highly experienced with chameleons and they do have me give an antibiotic while they wait for the culture results to come back which usually takes 5 to 6 days. Then they call and have me change the antibiotic to the once that this particular infection will work on. A few times in the past 13 years they have guessed correctly but normally they have to change it.

Jannb, you fail to understand the ramifications of your advice.

Obviously you have plenty of money to do this. Others are not so fortunate.

Just because they choose not to spend $300 on a PetSmart veiled does not make them bad people. The corollary is that spending $1000 on a PetSmart or JannB veiled does not make one a virtuous person.

I don't want to hear people talking about how you owe it to your pet, blah blah blah. Pet ownership should not be limited to the people who have thousands to dump on them. (I also want to add, that bottom line, if you have sickness, you have a husbandry and/or nutrition problem. That little nugget, by the way, was straight from the mouth of an exotic pathologist.)

Many people can find around $100 to spend but when you start suggesting that it is normal with this kind of health issue to perform procedures that will cost hundreds of dollars on the initial visit, many will choose to let nature take its course. That's a lot of chameleons that could be saved that will never have a chance. Many chameleon owners know they will choose not to spend hundreds, so they will also choose not to spend the initial vet visit.

Advising people to have cultures and drug sensitivities done means more chameleons won't be treated.

Prescribing a broad spectrum antibiotic is the normal treatment. Cultures are not.

@TheAmazingGerby

 

[jannb]

I have never paid $300 for a culture and sensitivity test. It's usually around $100 and I usually have the meds. at home unless it's something new or mine has expired. My vets only charge $300 if it's surgery or a bunch of diagnostic test run such as CT, Ulrta Sound or MRI and then my pet insurance covers the biggest part of it. I recommend pet insurance on all pets. It cost very little and pays very well. My chameleons pet insurance come to $8.00 a month a piece for chameleons. I do receive a multi pet discount and a discount for paying by the year instead of paying monthly. It has a $50 deductible and then it covers 90% and I pay ten. I have been keeping chameleons for 13 years and have a pretty good knoweledge of vets. Normally I am able to recommend a good chameleon vet to members here through out the country and even in other countries as well.

 

[Decadancin]

I'm not sure that one's advice here on the forums, especially advice based on personal experience, should not be given based on money only. If that were the parameters to use I could not give advice on misting systems, lighting, enclosures...
I encourage varied ideas and input, but this feels more like an answer that could have been structured in a much more informational way, and less of putting down advice you don't agree with.

 

[kinyonga]

It stands to reason that the normal approach for vets to any infection is to start the animal off on a wide spectrum antibiotic. It's always possible it will work and better than leaving the chameleon with no treatment and the possibility that the infection will get worse.
I've dealt with very few (almost no) RI's in chameleons but with other infections my vets have always suggested culture and sensitivity tests and if necessary a change to an antibiotic that works best on the bacteria involved. I haven't found it to be an outrageous cost....but then my vets don't have to send it out to another lab either. Maybe people need to look at that when choosing what vet to go to?

Regarding the ramifications....IMHO if you take on a pet you should be prepared to set aside some money to look after it properly. That being said I also realize that some people will say..."why spend the money to treat a chameleon when I can buy a new one for less than that?"

This puts us in a position of giving less than best advice so that some chameleons might survive with the wide-spectrum/no testing approach or give them the advise to do the culture and sensitivity test so the right antibiotic can be used.

Of course IMHO one more thing plays into this...RI's do need the wash to get the sample so that's an additional cost.

This whole thing also makes me wonder how many chameleons are lost to the wide-spectrum/no test approach?
Just my thoughts.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

We would all love to say that the cost of a test does not limit our ability to care for our animals but the reality is that it does. Culture and sensitivity is absolutely the best when feasible. That being said 1. It is often cost prohibitive, and 2. It doesn't always work. Even with a good sample it may or may not grow the correct organism. Sometimes other organisms will grow faster and out compete the actual organism causing disease so we grow only contaminants and not the true problem. The cost is going to vary quite a bit depending on how the test is done, etc. but for my clinic the culture and sensitivity in reptiles (including a gram stain) is $225 alone. And that's the lab who sets that, I don't really have much control over it (and that one is cheaper than the lab's competitor I checked with). We don't have the equipment to grow anything here. And to do appropriate antibiotic testing and correlate it with the gram stain it is worth doing it right the first time so you don't just waste your money doing a test with poor accuracy or major limitations to start. It depends on the clinic and the lab. Most reptiles also need to be sedated to get a sterile sample from their airway. So the cost of doing that testing is around $300 for my clinic, and I have seen higher (and lower). The average person with a $100 chameleon have their eyes bug out when I give them a $300 estimate just for testing. I don't have a lot of takers despite discussing how this is the best option. So it is reasonable to start with an empirical antibiotic first and if that doesn't work then press for culture. So...that's where I stand on that issue as a veterinarian.

 

[jajeanpierre]

@TheAmazingGerby Did you see @ferretinmyshoes response? She is a well respected reptile vet.

@jannb and @kinyonga Please read @ferretinmyshoes reply. You might not believe me, but perhaps you will believe Dayna.

 

[Decadancin]

@jajeanpierre, I get what you said in your first answer but still feel that your answer could have been structured differently. Even now you have an "I told you so" tone. I dont think you intend to, but it is coming across that way when I read it. I often say there is more than one answer to questions. I respect Dayna and do not dispute her reply, but Jann is also someone I respect. I don't always agree with everything she says, but she has a point too. Sounds like there are some good ideas that can help the OP decide what to do.
As for the old "arguement" about the cost of care and when money becomes a factor, that is for a different thread.
I just hope this great community can consider each other when wording responses so the valuable information is not lost.

 

[jannb]

We would all love to say that the cost of a test does not limit our ability to care for our animals but the reality is that it does. Culture and sensitivity is absolutely the best when feasible. That being said 1. It is often cost prohibitive, and 2. It doesn't always work. Even with a good sample it may or may not grow the correct organism. Sometimes other organisms will grow faster and out compete the actual organism causing disease so we grow only contaminants and not the true problem. The cost is going to vary quite a bit depending on how the test is done, etc. but for my clinic the culture and sensitivity in reptiles (including a gram stain) is $225 alone. And that's the lab who sets that, I don't really have much control over it (and that one is cheaper than the lab's competitor I checked with). We don't have the equipment to grow anything here. And to do appropriate antibiotic testing and correlate it with the gram stain it is worth doing it right the first time so you don't just waste your money doing a test with poor accuracy or major limitations to start. It depends on the clinic and the lab. Most reptiles also need to be sedated to get a sterile sample from their airway. So the cost of doing that testing is around $300 for my clinic, and I have seen higher (and lower). The average person with a $100 chameleon have their eyes bug out when I give them a $300 estimate just for testing. I don't have a lot of takers despite discussing how this is the best option. So it is reasonable to start with an empirical antibiotic first and if that doesn't work then press for culture. So...that's where I stand on that issue as a veterinarian.

I agree Dayna. My vets have always said the culture and sensitivity is the best way to go unless it was a very old animal or he was out of the country or something. Then he just guesses at an antibiotic to try. I am very lucky that my vet has a lab and that I have a good relationship with him. It's very sad that more keepers don't have pet insurance. Do you tell people about the insurance? It's a very affordable way to give your chameleon the proper care. I just paid Andy's for the year today and it was $73.00. I'll recoup that after one vet visit.

 

[kinyonga]

Ferrit said..."Culture and sensitvity is absolutely the best when feasible"...I referred to the culture and sensitivity testing being the best option.
Ferrit said many people don't opt for it...I said some people say why pay for all that when a chameleon costs less.
Didn't think what I said should be offensive to you jajeanpierre. I will still suggest the culture and sensitivity tests for most infections and when the person goes to the vet they can be given the options and decide for themselves.

 

[JacksJill]

Pet insurance is always a good idea.
If a pet owner does decide to pass on the culture and sensitivity they need to pay close attention to the 48 hour window for seeing improvement. If the problem persists or becomes worse they should have a plan in place to get a change of antibiotics. Many pet owners don't understand that they can call in for additional treatment and advise with an ongoing treatment.

 

[jajeanpierre]

@jajeanpierre, I get what you said in your first answer but still feel that your answer could have been structured differently. Even now you have an "I told you so" tone. I dont think you intend to, but it is coming across that way when I read it. I often say there is more than one answer to questions. I respect Dayna and do not dispute her reply, but Jann is also someone I respect. I don't always agree with everything she says, but she has a point too. Sounds like there are some good ideas that can help the OP decide what to do.
As for the old "arguement" about the cost of care and when money becomes a factor, that is for a different thread.
I just hope this great community can consider each other when wording responses so the valuable information is not lost.

Honestly, @Decadancin You are chastising me for how my written word came across to you, even though by your own admission you don't think I intend it that way? Are you serious? I think you need to grow a pair and just take what is written for what is written rather than reading so much drama into it. Give me a break!

@jpowell86

 

[Decadancin]

Honestly, @Decadancin You are chastising me for how my written word came across to you, even though by your own admission you don't think I intend it that way? Are you serious? I think you need to grow a pair and just take what is written for what is written rather than reading so much drama into it. Give me a break!

@jpowell86

That was me being diplomatic. I don't know if you have anything against Jann, but I have seen issues with MANY of your posts. I will tell everyone here on the forums that I know Jann and do not want anyone to think I am trying to hide that. I don't need to answer to you or anyone here on the forums about ANY of my posts. I have a few times had my "humor" taken the wrong way and felt terrible about it. I always try to think about all who may read what I write.
As for how "I" read into things, this brings up a good point. I get quite a few people here contact me about your posts. Often a rule was not necessarily broken, but the issue remains that people are leaving the forums based on how you have spoken to them. That is concerning to me.
I am not chastising anyone, but yes, I will tell you how it came across to me. Janet, if you would like to discuss this I am here at any time. But trust me when I say, I do not need to grow anything. I am perfectly able to fully express exactly what I want. If you would like me to be less diplomatic, sorry, but I take my role here very seriously and respect this community.