Roach rating showdown

[nightanole]

@JoeDigiorgio

The giant's are close to 2x the size, but still on the relative small side, but I would keep them as variety/treats, not as a staple feeder.

Not to argue, but curious what the logic is to feeding many small feeders>few large? I guess the chitin would be smaller, but it would seem like there's much more of it. I'm definitely open to giving surinam's a try though. Do they run around or try to burrow at the bottom of the enclosure somewhere?

Not all of us have chams that weigh more than a potato

id say smaller feeders are more universal. If you have a colony of normal green bananas, then you almost dont need half grown crickets or meal worms. The males are pretty small, and the females are still eaten by oust's.

Im still with you that a big feeder will have a better chitin to meat ratio, and odds are more gut load.

 

[jamest0o0]

@nightanole you have a tegu though haha

 

[nightanole]

@nightanole you have a tegu though haha

She's only a pound, and the adult dubia put up a good fight if she just gets a hold of a leg or wing

 

[jamest0o0]

They get 10-20lbs though dont they? Do you have an Argentine black and white?

 

[nightanole]

They get 10-20lbs though dont they? Do you have an Argentine black and white?

Its like aliens saying your human can get to 6.8 and 450lbs.

I have a red female.

"typical" females will be around 3ft and 4-7lbs
"typical" males will be around 4ft and 7-14lbs

"fat" b/w and red tegus can get to 20lbs

Then there is the very rare 4.5-5 footers, or the "giants" that are another breed of b/w that can also get to 4.5-5ft.

So she is 20" and 1 pound. The law of squares dictates that if she doubles in length to 40" she will weigh 10lbs.

 

[jamest0o0]

Ahhh gotcha, makes sense. Still very big though!

 

[nightanole]

Ahhh gotcha, makes sense. Still very big though!

Harry my Oust only got to 350g, i think i project my stature onto my extended family members.

 

[jamest0o0]

@nightanole I was going to buy an oustalet's awhile back. I hear they can be longer than parson's. Didn't know what their average weight was though. Everyone has said they are very docile and easy going chams.

 

[nightanole]

@nightanole I was going to buy an oustalet's awhile back. I hear they can be longer than parson's. Didn't know what their average weight was though. Everyone has said they are very docile and easy going chams.

Females are around 300g and males are around 500g. Ive seen some males weigh in at 650g. And yes they seem to require zero taming, like beardies.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

@jamest0o0 I can say firstly that since I was a kid, the advice of the older experienced keepers has always consistently been to feed more small prey over fewer large prey items.

Anecdotally, I noticed my chameleons maintain a better body composition this way and their poop look better as well. They also take more food per feeding this way.

I’m assuming the logic here is a more favorable chitin:guts ratio and easier digestion. By guts I mean not only the intestines filled with gut load but also the rest of the moist internal composition of the insects vs exoskeleton. I am trying to find some sort of scholarly article supporting this idea.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think your doing the animal a disservice by choosing larger prey within reason. I feed 9 different roaches alone, before even counting any of the other non-roach feeders I use regularly. I do think there is real value in keeping a couple of smaller species in addition to the larger ones though.

Banana roaches are a nice treat loved by pretty much all chameleons but kind of a pain to actually use as feeders. They run to cover very quickly then stop. I don’t know if I’d put them in my top 5. Surinam are bulky for their size. They cant scurry quickly up a smooth surface like other climbers.

As someone who keeps large chameleons, I wouldn’t give up my small species of roach for anything.

 

[jamest0o0]

@JoeDigiorgio I've heard the smaller prey thing before too, but never really knew why and now just go by anything as wide as space between eyes and smaller.

My problem is, my chams don't always easily accept most foods, so it's easier to get one good sized roach in them than 5-10. My Parsons only seems to like larger roaches as they run away from him. To do this with small roaches would take a lot of time each day, especially since parson's don't move very much or fast as it is. As for meat to chitin ratio, I figured larger would be better, but I'm not sure.

Don't get me wrong, I still feed smaller feeders at times. I would just say the bulk of my feedings are larger with about 20% being smaller(giant canyon isopods, bottleflies, worms, larvae, occasional small roach, etc).

Anyway, you have me sold on surinams, you said they do fine with the banana roaches in the same bin? Any other roaches you mix that do fine? Any other roach species you could recommend? Right now I'm trying to get my 12 discoid roaches to reproduce, though no nymphs so far after a few months... my feeder roaches are OH, dubia, hissers, and ivory. Also waiting on yellow porcelains to take off, which has been very slow.

 

[JacksJill]

In defense of smaller feeders, in chameleons that have temporal glands like Jacksonii and a Melleri it is said to be better to feed smaller prey rather than risk injury and inflammation of the gland.

 

[jamest0o0]

@JacksJill is that common? I also read that infections in the gland could be from vitamin A deficiency. Interesting that the theory is they use the gland to leave a nasty scent to attract flies and/or deter predators.

In any case. I don't have trioceros so one less worry for me lol .

 

[JacksJill]

One more worry for me & Joe.
All I know for sure is it's a husbandry issue and feeder size is just one possible cause. I've heard deficiency & imbalance theory's, high day time humidity and lack of outdoor UVB.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

@JoeDigiorgio

Anyway, you have me sold on surinams, you said they do fine with the banana roaches in the same bin? Any other roaches you mix that do fine? Any other roach species you could recommend? Right now I'm trying to get my 12 discoid roaches to reproduce, though no nymphs so far after a few months... my feeder roaches are OH, dubia, hissers, and ivory. Also waiting on yellow porcelains to take off, which has been very slow.

I believe gyna do well in the same environment as banana and Surinam roaches. I personally plan to add a species of gyna, probably lurida, to my Surinam/banana bin later this summer after I move them to a bigger bin. I also plan to add a second member of the Pycnoscelus family to the bin at that time. There are at least 3-4 other parthenogenetic members of that family along with Surinam roaches.

 

[jamest0o0]

Do surinams do well with small bins like ivorys or do they need a lot of space? And happen to know where to get any surinams?

Thanks for sharing

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

Do surinams do well with small bins like ivorys or do they need a lot of space? And happen to know where to get any surinams?

Thanks for sharing

They like floor space. I use the 4” tall bins that are long and wide. Most people I’ve seen keeping them you plastic shoeboxes.

I’ll have to check my bins. I might be able to spare a decent sized starter.

 

[jamest0o0]

@JoeDigiorgio no biggy, but if you could I'd for sure appreciate it. If there's anything I could trade, or whatever you'd want for some, just lmk. Thanks

 

[Andee]

I give mine medium sized floor space but with 6 inches of substrate. They are insanely happy. I feed from them more currently than my dubia.

 

[Longhorn1234]

Are there any other roaches, other than red runners, that do not burrow?