Sick Cham w/Parasites

[NorCalAnthony]

Hey Everyone,

My Nosy Be isn't doing too good and I'm hoping you guys might be able to help me help him. I spent some time feeding him and my other two chams yesterday and noticed that he's a really pale grayish white color and really skinny/bony looking and most of his crickets from the last feeding were still climbing around inside his cage. I'm not sure how long he's been like this either since I've been working a lot of 12 hour days lately and the lights in cham room are usually out by the time I get home. My wife feeds the chams for me while I'm at work but she doesn't usually spend too much time with them or look for things that are out of place and now she feels really bad for not noticing our guy's not doing well.

I had a handful of small silk worms so I put one of them on the branch and he came running up to it but hesitated when he got within shooting range and then barely shot his tongue a 3-4" and missed. He came a little closer and did this weird tongue poke and head tilt to scoop it up which really has me worried. He wolfed it down though but it looked like he hadn't eaten in days so I gave him the rest of the little silks maybe 6 total that were barely 1" long if that. I went out and got some super worms and butter worms for him today since he's having issues with his tongue and needed more of a stationary target. He was able to eat both of the supers and four of the butters and the fact that he still has an appetite made me feel a little better. What made me nervous again is when I was checking around his cage before it's weekly cleaning I found one of his droppings was riddled with rice grain size parasites. I'm going to make some calls tomorrow and see if I can't get him in to see the vet and see what they say but I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to help him out in the meantime. I don't have any good options for herp vets in my area and it usually takes a couple of days to get an appointment with one that will even see reptiles...

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Poseidon is a Nosy Be chameleon. He's around 3 1/2 years old and I've had him since he was a baby when I got him from LLL Reptile at the Sacramento Reptile Show a couple years back. I'll add a picture at the end of what he looks like now and one from when he was healthy.
• Handling - Seldom. He's my only cham that will come to you when you open his cage and he loves to explore but I rarely bring him out of his cage anymore thanks to my increased work schedule.
• Feeding - He gets fed every other day usually 10-12 med-large crickets with occasional dubias, silk worms, or horn worms mixed in whenever I can get my hands on them. The crickets and dubias are gut-loaded with home made gut load cubes of pureed mustard greens, dandelion greens, red peppers, apples, carrots, mint leaves, spirulina, and maybe a couple other things I'm forgetting at the moment...
• Supplements - He gets Repashy SuperCal no D during the week, Repashy SuperCal with D every other weekend, and a Herptevite on the other weekends.
• Watering - I have a Mist King setup that goes off every 2 hours for 2-3 minutes at a time. I occasionally see him drinking but he's usually shy about it.
• Fecal Description - His latest droppings have white urates but they look weird like kinda liquidy instead of solid like they normally are. The feces part was all broken up and riddled with parasites. I'll attach a picture below in case anyone wants to skip that part.
  
• History - He's been a pretty happy and healthy cham his whole life and has never had any health issues except for a few scratches that took forever to heal up.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Zoo Med XL 24" x 24" x 48" all screen enclosure
• Lighting - 24" Reptisun LED/UVB (10.0 T5 bulb w/6500k LED's) and a 90W Repti-Tuff basking bulb. Lights come on around 8am and go off around 8pm.
• Temperature - Basking temp is low-mid 90's with the rest of the cage being low 70's (our heat/air is usually set at 72 during the day). The lowest overnight temps would be mid-upper 60's. Basking temp is monitored with Exo Terra digital thermometer.
• Humidity - Not sure at the moment, the batteries went out on my hygrometer... Prior to that I was seeing averages in the 40% range with spikes up in to the 70-80% ranges during/after the misters go off.
• Plants - One large schefflera with a golden pothos that vines around.
• Placement - His cage is in a corner of the chameleon room. It's not near the vent but I do have a ceiling fan in there that I keep on low to keep the air circulating. His cage is on a small stand with of the cage being around 6' 4" tall.
• Location - Lincoln, CA (a little north of Sacramento)

Current Problem - Not using tongue, pale coloring, very skinny/lost a lot of weight, parasites in feces.

Here's what he normally looks like when he's healthy:



Here's how he looks now:



Here's a pic of his feces and urate on the cage floor (sorry about the dead leaves and dirty floor I snapped the picture before I cleaned the cage for the week):

 

[jpowell86]

Oh man, that poor guy is in really bad shape. I hate to see that.

How long have you been noticing a decline in his health/interest in eating? I'm really sorry this is happening, but based on the pictures...he is in major need of a vet. I hope that you kept some of his poop from the above picture and refrigerated it so the vet could examine it. I really wish that I could offer you some amazing insight on what you could do, but it is beyond the point of pre-medical attention.

He is an amazingly beautiful chameleon based on the first picture...so you have done a great job with him in the last 3 years. All I can say is good luck and I hope that it all works out. Please keep us posted.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Vet trip NOW. That is a super heavy parasite load and not something for a beginner to deal with. Take the pictures and a refrigerated sample with you. If anything this is a lesson to all keepers out there, once a year give your chams a routine deworming regimen

 

[jajeanpierre]

I have no experience looking at worms, but you might have a serious tape worm problem. Scoop that all up and refrigerate it to take to the vet. If you get a fresher sample today--hopefully you do with the silk worms--refrigerate that as well and bring it in. Bring both in for the vet to look at in case the second stool sample doesn't have the worms in it. Tape worms shed segments of their bodies and they are not in every stool sample. That's true of other parasites--they don't always shed eggs.

Even if you can't get him in to see the vet today, find the vet you want to use and take the sample in. They can read it today and you can have a diagnosis and know what you are dealing with.

Do a little research on your own on how to treat the parasites. Here's a link I often refer to when dosing my animals--I always calculate the dosage even though the vet has done that for me simply because they are growing and doses are so small, with some drugs a decimal point can make the difference between successfully treating your animal and killing it.

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/navc/2006/SAE/603.pdf?LA=1

I also will do a google search of Dr. Mader's text. (This is a book I like and want to buy but I first to check with a real vet that this is a book that is respected by exotic vets.)

http://www.us.elsevierhealth.com/exotics/reptile-medicine-and-surgery-hardcover/9780721693279/

Since you say your vet is inexperienced with treating reptiles, it is important for you to have a general idea of dosage and treatment going in. You do not want your vet prescribing Ivermectin. I'm pretty sure a reptile vet never would, but one not experienced with reptiles might.

If in fact you are seeing parasites and not some maggot from some miscellaneous fly that has laid eggs and found a food source in some moist fecal matter, you absolutely need expert help to deal with this parasite infection. It is massive. You do not want to suddenly kill the parasites for a lot of reasons.

I can't emphasize enough--I'm not a vet. Be skeptical of what all of us well meaning but non-veterinarians advise.

A massive die off of parasites can cause all kinds of life-threatening problems, including intestinal blockage. Do some research before you start treatment so you are sure your vet is doing the right thing.

In general, when I've dealt with a massive parasite load (I bought a lot of wild caughts last year), I under dose to weaken them and hopefully kill a few. I do not want a massive die off. I'm prepared to slowly do this. I also will add some water to the medication to make sure the animal does not become dehydrated. If your chameleon is dehydrated, get it hydrated BEFORE you begin treatment. Subcutaneous fluids with Vitamin B complex will help as long as your vet can safely give sub q fluids.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[NorCalAnthony]

Thanks for the replies so far everyone. Maybe I didn't say it plainly enough at first but I do understand this is serious and will be taking him to see a vet as soon as I can get an appointment with one. All of the vets near me have been closed for the last couple of days so I'm going to start calling around this morning once they start opening up and will take time off from work to get him there if needed.

What I'm trying to figure out is if there is anything I can do for him until the vet visit happens since it could be another day or two. I already ordered a big batch of silks and horn worms for him (since he can't catch active prey right now) and was going to pick up some more super worms and butter worms to hold him over until they arrive.

I'm also trying to figure out if there might be something else going on besides the parasites? In all the reading I've been doing about this issue I've never seen anyone mention the discoloration or loss of function in their tongues so I'm worried there may be something else going on...

jajeanpierre - Thanks for the suggestions and links. I'll be sure to go through them before my vet trip to make sure they're recommending/prescribing something similar.

 

[jannb]

I am so sorry to hear about your boy and hope he will have a full recovery. Where do you live? It's important to get a reptile vet with some chameleon knowledge if at all possible. I might know someone with a chameleon in your area and be able to tell you a vet in drivable distance if I know where you live.

Janet, I'm not sure if you know that Dr. Mader is one of my vets and that is an excellent reference book. Dr. Mader has 3 books and I have found that one the most useful. All the vets that are attempting to work on reptiles should have his books if they are trying to treat reptiles. My mobile cham vet from Orlando that makes house calls has Mader's books and often recommends getting the 2nd addition first.

 

[brownie64]

Not saying he isn't sick buy looking at his pic this is obvious, but to my untrained eye I'm leaning towards maggots not parasites. Will be interesting to see what the vet says. I wish you and your cham the best outcome.

 

[NorCalAnthony]

Thanks Jann. I’ve been looking up herp/reptile vets online and hadn’t thought about contacting any of the members on here to see what vets they use but that's an awesome idea. I’m in the Sacramento area (a little to the north in Lincoln) and I know CNorton and I think NorCal55 are somewhat close but I don’t know who else… I went back and re-read the Area by Area Vet List sticky and found one that isn’t too far away so I’m going to start there before I start pm-ing people.

brownie64 - To be honest I'm not too familiar with parasites or their different varieties, I'm just assuming that's what those are because they were in his feces and that's the first thing that came to mind. I'm not sure how a fly would've gotten in to the screened enclosure to lay eggs that'd turn in to maggots though? I'll be sure to follow up after the vet visit to let everyone know what winds up going on...

 

[jajeanpierre]

I am so sorry to hear about your boy and hope he will have a full recovery. Where do you live? It's important to get a reptile vet with some chameleon knowledge if at all possible. I might know someone with a chameleon in your area and be able to tell you a vet in drivable distance if I know where you live.

Janet, I'm not sure if you know that Dr. Mader is one of my vets and that is an excellent reference book. Dr. Mader has 3 books and I have found that one the most useful. All the vets that are attempting to work on reptiles should have his books if they are trying to treat reptiles. My mobile cham vet from Orlando that makes house calls has Mader's books and often recommends getting the 2nd addition first.

I did not know!

It was a book I wanted to get but I wanted to find out from other people/exotic vets if his book was a good reference book to have. I liked his common sense approach.

Just to be clear, which book would you recommend as a reference volume for me? Lucky you to have such a good vet.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks Jann. I’ve been looking up herp/reptile vets online and hadn’t thought about contacting any of the members on here to see what vets they use but that's an awesome idea. I’m in the Sacramento area (a little to the north in Lincoln) and I know CNorton and I think NorCal55 are somewhat close but I don’t know who else… I went back and re-read the Area by Area Vet List sticky and found one that isn’t too far away so I’m going to start there before I start pm-ing people.

brownie64 - To be honest I'm not too familiar with parasites or their different varieties, I'm just assuming that's what those are because they were in his feces and that's the first thing that came to mind. I'm not sure how a fly would've gotten in to the screened enclosure to lay eggs that'd turn in to maggots though? I'll be sure to follow up after the vet visit to let everyone know what winds up going on...

I recently sold a baby gracilior someone in Sacramento who has a LOT of chameleons. I'll contact him for his recommendation.

 

[jpowell86]

which book would you recommend as a reference volume for me

I would get Volume 2 first as well. I used to refer to Dr. Fredric Frye's book, in which Mader contributed, but it holds no water to Mader's text. IMO.

I went back and re-read the Area by Area Vet List sticky and found one that isn’t too far away so I’m going to start there before I start pm-ing people.

I hope you were able to find a vet that could get your boy in.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks for the replies so far everyone.

jajeanpierre - Thanks for the suggestions and links. I'll be sure to go through them before my vet trip to make sure they're recommending/prescribing something similar.

Here is the recommendation of someone in Sacramento that I sold a baby gracilior to. He has a very large collection

Madison Avenue Veterinary 8520 Madison Ave, Fair Oaks 916-961-1541

Good luck.

And just to reassure you about the parasites, there are just too many for me to believe it is tape worms. I think it is some kind of fly maggot. Do you feed Black Soldier Fly larvae (Phoenix worms? I think some producers call them Calci worms?)

That's not to say he doesn't have some sort of health issue--he doesn't look great--but I just can't believe it is parasites. The only time I've seen such a massive load is after worming an animal that is just loaded with parasites such as a puppy from the pound (they will poop out white spaghetti, they are so wormy) or a wild caught. Even so, it is only when the parasites die and can no longer hold themselves in the gut that it happens. A tape worm loses a few segments of itself, but not that many. The segments look like your picture until they dry up and become things that look like rice.

 

[Jahnna64]

I noticed you got him in Sacramento. Do you live in Sacramento? If so I do too, and I know of a very experienced chameleon vet that you could see. Let me know and I'll give you the number.

 

[Spags]

I noticed you got him in Sacramento. Do you live in Sacramento? If so I do too, and I know of a very experienced chameleon vet that you could see. Let me know and I'll give you the number.

Vet trip NOW. That is a super heavy parasite load and not something for a beginner to deal with. Take the pictures and a refrigerated sample with you. If anything this is a lesson to all keepers out there, once a year give your chams a routine deworming regimen

I agree with both of these posts. From the look of him now to his feces. There is def. something not alright. I recommend bringing them in once a year at least and this cham seems to need that trip. It could be something extremely easy to treat. Don't stress too much but i urge you to bring him to the vet as soon as possible.

 

[Blang]

I looked at his picture of the feces up close & to me it looks like some kind of maggots from a fly or other insect! I think those arrived after the animal pooped & are eating the cham feces! Just my .02!

 

[NorCalAnthony]

Here is the recommendation of someone in Sacramento that I sold a baby gracilior to. He has a very large collection

Madison Avenue Veterinary 8520 Madison Ave, Fair Oaks 916-961-1541

Good luck.

Thanks that's actually the same vet I mentioned above that I had found in the Area by Area Vet List. I was able to get an appointment set up for tomorrow at 3:30 in the afternoon. Besides being mentioned on here they have a lot of positive reviews online so I'm hoping they'll be able to help my guy out.

And no I've never fed any of my guys the calci-worms/black soldier fly larvae that I can remember. Just crickets & dubias with occasional silks, horn worms and butter worms mixed in.

I noticed you got him in Sacramento. Do you live in Sacramento? If so I do too, and I know of a very experienced chameleon vet that you could see. Let me know and I'll give you the number.

I actually live up in Lincoln but work in South Sac near Watt & Hwy 50. I just found what I'm hoping is a good vet (Madison Ave Vet Clinic) but if you have another please share since they're apparently hard to come by lol.

 

[Jahnna64]

Thanks that's actually the same vet I mentioned above that I had found in the Area by Area Vet List. I was able to get an appointment set up for tomorrow at 3:30 in the afternoon. Besides being mentioned on here they have a lot of positive reviews online so I'm hoping they'll be able to help my guy out.

And no I've never fed any of my guys the calci-worms/black soldier fly larvae that I can remember. Just crickets & dubias with occasional silks, horn worms and butter worms mixed in.



I actually live up in Lincoln but work in South Sac near Watt & Hwy 50. I just found what I'm hoping is a good vet (Madison Ave Vet Clinic) but if you have another please share since they're apparently hard to come by lol.

I live in Folsom and that's where I bring my little guy. She is amazing. They are hard to come by and it took me forever to find one. Wishing the best for you and you're chameleon

 

[NorCalAnthony]

I live in Folsom and that's where I bring my little guy. She is amazing. They are hard to come by and it took me forever to find one. Wishing the best for you and you're chameleon

Thanks that's great to hear. I'm crossing my fingers they'll be able to help my little guy out and get him healthy ASAP.

Thanks everyone for the concern and trying to help. I'll be sure to post an update after the vet visit tomorrow for those who are interested.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

I looked at his picture of the feces up close & to me it looks like some kind of maggots from a fly or other insect! I think those arrived after the animal pooped & are eating the cham feces! Just my .02!

I'm not going to go into a bunch of details, but I've seen enough to know the cham needs a trip to the vet, a fecal, and some deworming done. Those are not tapeworms at all.

I own both Vol 1 and 2 of Frye's books, bought those new. I own Doc Mader's book too, bought that new. I also have my old paperback on internal parasites from I think..Doc Klingerburg(?) I don't have it handy to see if that's how the name is spelled. There is plenty of information out there for anybody who really wants it, unlike decades ago.

I restate my first post, Vet trip. By the time a cham starts showing its sick like your photo shows him, you don't have a lot of time imo. Just trying to help.

 

[jannb]

Thanks Jann. I’ve been looking up herp/reptile vets online and hadn’t thought about contacting any of the members on here to see what vets they use but that's an awesome idea. I’m in the Sacramento area (a little to the north in Lincoln) and I know CNorton and I think NorCal55 are somewhat close but I don’t know who else… I went back and re-read the Area by Area Vet List sticky and found one that isn’t too far away so I’m going to start there before I start pm-ing people.

brownie64 - To be honest I'm not too familiar with parasites or their different varieties, I'm just assuming that's what those are because they were in his feces and that's the first thing that came to mind. I'm not sure how a fly would've gotten in to the screened enclosure to lay eggs that'd turn in to maggots though? I'll be sure to follow up after the vet visit to let everyone know what winds up going on...

Check out post #30 in the Area by Area Vet List. Jessica use to keep allot of chameleons and if her vet is still at that practice he would be a good one to use.