Sick, Not Eating, Sunken Eyes

[xavior]

Hey there, new to the forums but i have a very interesting problem:

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Panther Chameleon, 1 year approx in my care, male. We got him from the breeder when he was very little, only 3 months i believe.

Handling - We tend to handle him at least once or twice a day

Feeding - His major food source is crickets from the local pet store. Generally, 5-10 crickets of 4 weeks is the normal which receive a dusting of calcium as well.

Supplements - Zoomed: Repticalcium and Multi-vitamin
Watering - Monsoon, automatic mister that mists approx every hour once for 5-8 seconds

Fecal Description - Its been some time since i was able to record him using the bathroom, he has stopped eating for 2-4 weeks now. No, he has not had parasites and has been de-wormed by the breeder.

History - He has sometimes gone into food fits where he wont eat for about a week or so where we usually spark his appetite with a horned worm. This time, we have failed to get things going.

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Large cage, screen setup

Lighting - Cant remember the details on the heat lamp but his basking spot is
approx 28-29° C. The UV bulb is probably due for a change where its been about 6 months since the last time.

Temperature - See above, temperatures are measured through a sensor by his basking spot.

Humidity - We don't have an way to measure his humidity levels at all, i feel as though this mesh cage is not the best idea to keep the humidity inside. He is sick right now where we have covered all four sides with plastic now to keep more in.

Plants - No live plants, we use plastic ones

Placement - Yes, he is in our living room near the air return in the corner of the room. The top of the cage is quite high from the floor.

Location - Geographically located in Canada, alberta, calgary to be specific.

Current Problem - The current problem is that he is not eaten anything for approx 4 weeks now. I have tried and tried to get him to eat but he just refuses to. I did bring home two horned worms 1-2 weeks ago and he did eat those in an effort to spark his appetite. Two days ago it was the breaking point for him that i had to get him some help. His eyes were sunken in, he was very lethargic to the point where once i removed him from the cage he was unable to get his arms up under him fast enough and dropped on his chin. At this point i believed he was severely dehydrated and i had to get him some immediate help.

After seeing some ER care, he received some fluids injections and some calcium and things were looking better. That night, i took him home and lined the walls of his enclosure with plastic to get the humidity levels up and heat. I noticed, that night, that he was licking the leaves to drink. This had got me excited that he was on the road to full recovery. Fast forward to two days from that point, he is not licking the leaves again and i am not sure what to do. The ER had me purchase some baby food, chicken and vegetable, and instructed me to feed him with a syringe. This is proving to be very difficult and he does not want it at all. He still refuses to eat, much alone drink where i am not sure what to do anymore. Needless to say that vet bill was not cheap at all and it was a large outlay for him.

I was feeding him diluted baby food with a 1:1 ratio but i feel maybe i should go with the pure stuff to get as much protein and vitamins in his system as possible. He has lost a lot of weight over that period and i fear that if i dont rectify this problem that i may be in trouble. I was also contemplating diluting some of that calcium with d3 with the baby food and giving that to him via syringe. What are your thoughts on the situation? I will include some photos of him and you guys can judge for yourself. The yellow on his chin is really the remains of this mornings attempted feed where it did not go well. He hates eating by syringe.

Also, i have noticed this "bump" right above his back legs which i am uncertain about. I have included a photo to show you the details of this. I am not sure if its normal but the area has gone white for him.

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https://db.tt/RZOde1Kn

 

[sandrachameleon]

Lots of things Id suggest changing, but firstly
more water (5-8 seconds is not adequate)
more prey variety (a cricket diet is not adequate). what do you /did you gutload the crickets with?
I would smash up a mixture of bugs/insects (not just crickets!) with a little vitamin and calcium and water and use that rather than baby food, if you feel force-feeding is necessary.

 

[xavior]

Lots of things Id suggest changing, but firstly
more water (5-8 seconds is not adequate)
more prey variety (a cricket diet is not adequate). what do you /did you gutload the crickets with?
I would smash up a mixture of bugs/insects (not just crickets!) with a little vitamin and calcium and water and use that rather than baby food, if you feel force-feeding is necessary.

Great, thanks for the reply. I do have some crickets only at the moment to mash up that are alive of course. How do i put them together? They would need to be finely mashed up to fit in the syringe.

To be honest i have no idea what this gut loaded thing is all about, i have never done it before.

As for the water, yes i can increase the seconds on the monsoon to get more humidity and water inside the cage. But, he is currently not drinking off of the leaves like he was when he first arrived from ER care. What should i do? Can i mix the baby food and calcium powder with d3 with some water and give that to him?

There are currently live crickets roaming around in his cage but he just watches them and does nothing to eat them.

 

[teejayteej]

Try getting some more horn worms you said that he ate those. Maybe try wax worms, I use those as treats (mostly fat and water) but anything is better than nothing at this point. did not notice where you were at but most local pet stores will carry wax and meal worms. Get some multi-vitamins and not just the cal w/d3. If he does not try to eat the worms you can use them to mix in your bug paste to feed.
if you have a Wal-mart they have little mixers (I used them to make baby food) for around $10 you could use that. They will turn anything into a baby food type paste just add a little water to help with the blending.

 

[reptilover]

The water should spray roughly 3-6 minutes 3 times a day. That gives it a thorough soaking and allows for him to drink and also allows enough time for it dry out completely.
As for gutloading (which is sandrachameleons expertise) is a manner of taking a normal staple food for the crickets away a day or two before feeding and then offer them a mixture of highly nutritious food for them so they stuff themselves full of it before feeding. Maybe some other members can offer to send u a variety of insects to sample. And if u find one he eats willingly u can inject that insect with water and vitamins.
Sandra has blogs about gutload recipes and what certain bugs should be fed. Good luck

 

[sandrachameleon]

Great, thanks for the reply. I do have some crickets only at the moment to mash up that are alive of course. How do i put them together? They would need to be finely mashed up to fit in the syringe.

lots of possible methods, the easiest is to put a handful of bugs with a little water and supplements into a mini-food processor and blend.

Or if you don't have that,
take a live cricket, squish between two spoons (pre kill the crickets if you want)
keep crushing between moving spoons to break into small bits.
you need the bits small enough to fit through a syringe.
do the same for a superworm, a hornworm, and whatever other prey you are using (buy bugs online if you cant find locally). with supers, you can alternatively use scissors to cut the heat off then squeeze the guts out like toothpaste (trash the skin and head).
scrape bug bits into a very small container and add a little water.
add a little supplements powder.
if you have it, consider adding a little spirulina.
use your fingers or the spoon or whatever to mix the bug bits with the water.
pick out any large pieces you cannot break up small enough to fit through the syringe.

To be honest i have no idea what this gut loaded thing is all about, i have never done it before.

once your animal is less dehydrated and eating well, you need to learn what this is.

 

[Gem]

Foliage

Hey there,

Sorry to hear about your little guy, but there are things you could change.

First off, I agree with above comments. Gutloading your insects is super important as they are just crispy shells and provide little to no nutrition.

Secondly, the biggest killers in chameleons MBD due to a lack in calcium and dehydration. You sounds like you have the calcium thing down so I would reccomend getting some real plants in his viv, as they retain the water better.

What I sometimes do it hold my cham and drip water onto his closed mouth. It takes his a while to realise the water is there but then he just starts drinking.

Hope this helps

Here's a safe list of plants for your cham: http://www.flchams.com/safe_plant_list.asp

 

[xavior]

Hey there,

Sorry to hear about your little guy, but there are things you could change.

First off, I agree with above comments. Gutloading your insects is super important as they are just crispy shells and provide little to no nutrition.

Secondly, the biggest killers in chameleons MBD due to a lack in calcium and dehydration. You sounds like you have the calcium thing down so I would reccomend getting some real plants in his viv, as they retain the water better.

What I sometimes do it hold my cham and drip water onto his closed mouth. It takes his a while to realise the water is there but then he just starts drinking.

Hope this helps

Here's a safe list of plants for your cham: http://www.flchams.com/safe_plant_list.asp

Thanks everyone for all your replies. I had to go to work this evening and when i returned i found him on the bottom of the enclosure unable to climb back up. He was that weak where he was unable to get himself back up.

As for the calcium comment, he would have been getting some calcium but he hasn't been eating for the last 2-4 weeks. He has been calcium deficient and really is in a rough spot right now. I have crushed some bugs up for him, mixed with the baby food, calcium and some crickets mashed up. Now the crickets that i crushed up were not gut loaded.

I have gotten him to eat more now for some reason as i type this and i have upped the amount of calcium in the mix for this evening. When he was at the ER he received a calcium injection and it was beneficial for him. That night he was looking worlds better than today. He also got fluids of course but i am really at my end with how hard he is taking things.

As for gut loading recipes, i would love to see the blog about what you have come up with. I will also head out and replace the UVB bulb now, i have read somewhere that if its not working right he wont be able to metabolize and make use of the calcium. Either way, it could use a change. The current one i am using is the exoterra UVB150. Not sure if this is appropriate


As for the comment about the water spraying for 3-6 minutes. Wow that is a long time to have the water spraying. I think the maximum my monsoon has is about 1 minute or so if i am not mistaken. Here is the problem, there would be a large pool of water at the bottom of his mesh enclosure. How would i deal with all of the excess water?

Please, i welcome any more comments or tips! I just need Theo to get back to feeling well and all. This is truly heart breaking and as much as i try, things seem to be going for the worst.

 

[MelissaB]

I'm so sorry your guy isn't feeling well, I hope he gets better soon. I don't have any advice on how to help him, I'm still too new at this.
Could you give him a dripper of some sort, so he'd have access to water even if the monsoon isn't running? I have an auto misting system, but I noticed that my guy (Jackson Xanth) likes to use both. You could put some sort of pot covered with a screen type barrier like pantyhose(so cham/feeders don't fall in) to catch the excess water.
As far as drainage for your cage, there are a lot of ideas here in the Drainage thread. https://www.chameleonforums.com/drainage-systems-cages-get-creative-102038/
I use a water tray from LLLReptile, with a fitting connected to hose that goes to a 5 gallon bucket. Someone posted a thread about doing it that way, but I can't find the thread. It could also be as easy as drilling some holes in the plastic bottom, and setting it over a rubbermaid tote. There are a ton of great setup ideas in that thread.
I hope your guy feels better really soon.

 

[xavior]

Thank you everyone for all your comments and advice. I also would like to know with the mesh cages how you properly keep the humidity up.

 

[MelissaB]

Some people cover the three sides with plastic or a shower curtain. One member uses the plastic sheeting that shrinks with a hair dryer, it's the stuff you usually use on windows to keep the drafts out. Live plants help a lot, too.

 

[xavior]

Some people cover the three sides with plastic or a shower curtain. One member uses the plastic sheeting that shrinks with a hair dryer, it's the stuff you usually use on windows to keep the drafts out. Live plants help a lot, too.

Oh okay, thats what i have right now jimmy rigged out. I have just taped a bunch of garbage bags around the chameleon mess cage right now to keep some of the moisture in.

But, i find that its flapping around and really not providing that moisture i am looking for. What about nozzle positioning when it comes to automatic systems? Should they be shooting downwards toward the middle of the cage or from below shooting up? Any suggestions would help.

In regards to live plants, do they really make that much of a difference for keeping humidity up?

 

[MelissaB]

I think most people have their nozzle up high pointing either down or horizontally towards the middle of the cage. I have a rain dome, so I'm not 100% sure on nozzle positioning. Real plants make a really big difference, because they help hold the humidity in the leaves and the soil. You'd be really surprised at the difference it makes. You have to cover the soil so the cham doesn't eat it, on purpose or accidentally. Some people use bigger stones, some use landscape fabric or burlap. I use stones that are about the size of my cham's head, so he can't get them in his mouth.
Pothos plants are one of the easiest plants to use, they're really tough to kill. My cham loves to climb and sleep on the vines, hide out in the leaves and drink off of them.
You can hang a hanging basket of pothos by putting something across the top of your cage (so that it rests on the frame), like a thicker dowel rod, piece of wood, ect, and running wire or heavy duty fishing line through the screen and over the support piece. I use a piece of 1/2 inch electrical conduit (had it laying around from doing a project) and plastic coated garden wire that was run through the screen several times to make a strong loop to hang my pothos. Even if you just put the plant on the bottom of the cage, it will help.

 

[xavior]

Wow, i just took him in the shower with me after reading through some threads on this forum and he loved it. He had his mouth wide open, taking in all of that humidity and i was able to drip some droplets from my hand on his nose. From there, he proceeded to take them in his mouth!

Success!! He was drinking and had a lot of it. After that, well i was completely soaked and finished my shower. He just hung out on the side and actually fell asleep. The humidity in there is really high, but it appears he loves it.

I am almost tempted to change out his mesh cage for a glass one to achieve the same effect if that is how much humidity a cham should want.

I have his cage being heated right now so its not so much of a shock to transfer him there.

 

[kinyonga]

IMHO you need to get him to the vets ASAP.

 

[xavior]

IMHO you need to get him to the vets ASAP.

I have taken him to see the ER two days ago in a panic, but i may consider taking him to see a specialist to really speed up the recovery.

 

[kinyonga]

Do you have a substrate in the cage? Was he pooping right up to the time he stopped eating?

 

[xavior]

Nope, nothing at the bottom but just some white plastic that came with the exoterra mesh cage.

Also, good news: After the shower, i had the mister on in the cage and he has started to lick the leaves for water! Yays!

 

[teejayteej]

good, daily showers for the boy then. lol
I hope that he starts eatting now too.

 

[xavior]

Hey guys, a little update on my little theo:

I have made a makeshift dripper and he seems to love it, has been drinking last night and this morning. This morning i had to move him there myself but once i did he got he picture and started drinking.

But help me out here guys, when he is in the shower with me he turns completely white. Strange to say the least but this morning he didnt really want to drink the droplets off my finger above his nose. I need to get him to start eating some of the crickets and what not as this reliance on baby food + multivitamin powder for today seems to be not enough.

I did have one comment about his behavior in the shower though, i cant tell if he is breathing through his mouth or is he has his mouth wide open to eat. I placed the syringe in his mouth and unloaded some of the food but he just kept his mouth wide open. I wasnt sure what to do to be honest, so i dropped some water inside and he closed. Then he re-opened again, nice and wide with his chin out as well and did it again. He just stood here, mouth wide open where i wasnt sure if i should be waiting to feed him or use that opportunity to drop food and water in his mouth.

Any thoughts? It almost appears he was breathing through his mouth possibly. Once i was done, i placed him in the corner of the shower and i continued to finish showering myself where he stayed mouth wide opened and just watched.

lol, i am totally foreign to this type of behavior and am not sure if i should continue to feed him this way.