Supplement Confusion

N

nymphadora

New Member
Hello All,

I have a baby Jackson chameleon and I am very confused about the supplements I need to give her and when I need to give them to her. I have read many different opinions from the internet and you tube video's and I am afraid that I will either give her to much supplement or too little supplement. These are the supplements that I bought:
  • Rep-Cal Calcium WITHOUT D3
  • Rep-Cal Ultrafine Calcium with D3
  • Rep-Cal Herptavite

She is only a couple months old and I don't put her outside/ she is not by a window, so what would be a reasonable schedule to have her on?
 
nymphadora said:
Hello All,

I have a baby Jackson chameleon and I am very confused about the supplements I need to give her and when I need to give them to her. I have read many different opinions from the internet and you tube video's and I am afraid that I will either give her to much supplement or too little supplement. These are the supplements that I bought:
  • Rep-Cal Calcium WITHOUT D3 Use for every feeding
  • Rep-Cal Ultrafine Calcium with D3 use on two feedings every month
  • Rep-Cal Herptavite Use on two feedings every month

She is only a couple months old and I don't put her outside/ she is not by a window, so what would be a reasonable schedule to have her on?
Click to expand...

Better? No more confusion?
 
Chameleons will thrive on the schedule camimom suggested. That's the supplement schedule most recommended for them.
 
In addition to this, I have started adding liquid vitamin A (from gel capsules for humans, with a pin hole in it to get the liquid out).

I've noticed drastic improvements, and I started doing it after reading of other's experiences.

What you want is Retinyl Palmitate, or Halibut liver oil. I use one that has both types of vitamin A in one capsule.

I just put ONE DROP on ONE INSECT....ONCE a month.

Other than that, the above mentioned schedule is also what I use.
 
I think I should point out that the schedule mentioned above, while common for panthers and veileds, may be excessive for a jack. Typically they require less supplementation, especially once they are adult. You also have to take into consideration what prey you are offering, and what that prey eats.
 
Brock- What does the vitamin A do for chameleons. Also what kind of drastic improvements have you seen?

Sandrachameleon- If the schedule mentioned is too excessive then what is typical for a jackson?
 
people must be aware that when Brock means a drop of vit.A he does mean a drop....or even smaller because you can overdose very eassily

you will get a cham with a swollen neck area called gular edema if he has too much vit.A or too much protein

if something like this develops just let your cham get alot of natural sunshine

it has worked with me greatly and i was advised to do so by an expereinced keeper
 
Brock said:
In addition to this, I have started adding liquid vitamin A (from gel capsules for humans, with a pin hole in it to get the liquid out).

I've noticed drastic improvements, and I started doing it after reading of other's experiences.

What you want is Retinyl Palmitate, or Halibut liver oil. I use one that has both types of vitamin A in one capsule.

I just put ONE DROP on ONE INSECT....ONCE a month.

Other than that, the above mentioned schedule is also what I use.
Click to expand...

I do this as well. If your cham has eye or tongue issues. It is a sign of vit A defency your vet will probley suggest doing this weekly Like they say
(an ounce of prevention is worth its weight in gold)
 
imcurt...do you have a paper that indicates that tongue issues are related to hypOvitaminosos A? I'd love to read it.
 
nymphadora said:
Brock- What does the vitamin A do for chameleons. Also what kind of drastic improvements have you seen?

Sandrachameleon- If the schedule mentioned is too excessive then what is typical for a jackson?
Click to expand...

In my opinion, it may be a bit excessive. If it were my chameleon, I would offer a little less for a Jackson than I do for my panthers.
I dont offer any preformed vitamin A to my animals, and they do fine - but many people find that offering a LITTLE can help with muscle control and eyesight (especially if a wide variety of feeders is not being offered). But again I would provide less than is being suggested here, especially for a jacksons, if I were you. Also many chameleons do not like the feel of oil in their mouth, so if you want to supplement with preformed vitamin A you might like to consider the repashy product or a supplement powder containing it, as something to add from time to time.

You may find this blog entry of interest:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
 
sandrachameleon said:
In my opinion, it may be a bit excessive. If it were my chameleon, I would offer a little less for a Jackson than I do for my panthers.
I dont offer any preformed vitamin A to my animals, and they do fine - but many people find that offering a LITTLE can help with muscle control and eyesight (especially if a wide variety of feeders is not being offered). But again I would provide less than is being suggested here, especially for a jacksons, if I were you. Also many chameleons do not like the feel of oil in their mouth, so if you want to supplement with preformed vitamin A you might like to consider the repashy product or a supplement powder containing it, as something to add from time to time.

You may find this blog entry of interest:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
Click to expand...

While I would have to agree that for a montane species the Vit A suggested in this thread might be a bit too aggressive. I am worried a bit by the fear placed in forum members by the extreme caution that preformed Vitamin A is approached with on the forum in general. I believe you are correct in your assumption that many things go into the balanced nutritional needs of chameleons in general and specific species in particular. I also hypothesize that large shifts in supplementation in young quickly growing chameleons has a play on developing deficiencies. I have great respect for your blog and your focus on balanced nutrition and I can tell you I have learned a GREAT deal from reading up on your blog and posts. I believe you address the need for Vit A to a great deal with your inclusion of many wild caught insects that provide performed Vitamin A. While this is good for you and has most likely contributed greatly to the health of your group of animals. For many the risks of introducing pesticides and parasites in our urban environment where we live is too high. We would rather over supplementing with a little performed Vit A than take the risk with all the wild bugs that could and most likely do provide the needed level.
Some breeders give supplements at a MUCH higher level than is recommended on chameleonforum.com. In doing a lot of searching and research on eye and tongue problems on the forum and calling different "experts" in the cham community I have found a consistent pattern. The onset of tongue problems with chams (mostly panthers) from certain breeders is similar. Often it is the first cham they have ever had. They buy from a good well respected breeder spend a bunch on set up not to mention on the cham and when they start getting tongue problems, often within a couple months, they ask for help. Most of the time the same responses are given as to the possible causes, they may or may not visit a exotic vet. These animals need a great deal of care to get the nutrition they need to grow. In most cases these "new cham owners" fall off the forum and my assumption is that their cham dies and they move on to other hobbies. They did "everything" right and yet they still had a HUGE problem by their cham losing the use of their tongue. I have tried to get into contact with many former forum members that have had tongue problems to follow up on how they were doing now and have had very poor responses.

I was one of these. My cham developed a tongue issue about 4-5 weeks after I got him. I was doing everything right I was using the prescribed forum Rep-Cal formula for dusting. I was keeping 8 different feeders available for him. I was gut loading with cricket crack (now I am using your recipe sandrachameleon) and doing a good wet gutload from what I learned from reading Sandra's blog. Still I developed the poor aim tongue issue. I took him to an exotic vet in my area who has Parson raising experience. Had a fecal done which was clean but showed signs of infection so gave him 10 days of Baytril. Still No improvement. I started taking him outside for sun 3 days a week for 2-3 hrs at a time (anyone that knows AZ in the summer knows how hard this is, and installed a mister system on our porch to facilitate it). In desperation I started calling people that had vaguely mentioned stuff about performed A on the forum but had to some degree been blasted for it. I started using the described method above for adding supplementing with liquid gel caps on one feeder every 2 weeks (for chams with problems) and used the Repashy dust on one feeder on the weeks I didn't use the liquid. Slowly his aim started to get close. His shooting was getting harder and farther and instead of missing by inches he was missing by Centimeters. In the past couple of days he has started hitting. :D:D:D:D This morning he took 5 bugs out of my fingers and only missed once.

I got my first cham from a very well respected source but I found out that they give Reptivite and D3 4 times more than is suggested by this forum. I feel that if I had done less research and just gone with the care sheet I would never of had an issue. I think the drastic change from 8 times a month to 2 times a month was one of the factors that lead to my chams deficiency. The other factor is using a Rep-Cal Herptivite that does not include performed A. These problems seem to be much more prevalent in Panthers, which leads many to believe that Vailed and other Montane species have a greater ability to convert beta carotene than do Pathers.
 
Last edited:
clarkrw3 said:
[breeder recommended supplementation of] Reptivite and D3 [near] 4 times more than is suggested by this forum...would never of had an issue. I think the drastic change from 8 times a month to 2 times a month was one of the factors that lead to my chams deficiency. The other factor is using a Rep-Cal Herptivite that does not include performed A.
Click to expand...

I really think you're on to something here Rob. I have always wondered why the forum and many of it's prominent members have been so deathly afraid of oversupplementation. I'd like to here from some of you out there!
 
CNorton said..."prominent members have been so deathly afraid of oversupplementation"....I'm not afraid of it with my chameleons. Since my chameleons are doing well...healthy, live long lives, produce healthy babies, etc. then I can only assume that what I'm doing is a good thing and why change it? I also worry about newbies (and maybe some others) will get carried away and overdo the D3 and prEformed vitamin A and end up with problems with their chameleons, especially problems that may not show up quickly (organ failure, for example).

I have never used prEformed vitamin A (I can't guarantee that there has never been any in the food the insects were fed before I got them though) and I've never had the typical eye issues that are said to come from hypovitaminosis A. Why not??

I've never had a chameleon with tongue dysfunction that wasn't caused by an injury. Why not??

I also find it odd that the only chameleon who's necropsy showed hypovitaminosis A was being given prEformed vitamin A....but maybe there was something abnormal about him that prevented him from using the vitamin A in its system?

I haven't managed to get every species I've owned to reproduce...but I can't say that it was from a lack of vitamin A.

I understand that some people have used prEformed vitamin A with good results. I'm glad that it has worked for them....however I'm still not 100% convinced that its still not related to an imbalance.

People seem to use cod liver oil type sources which often contain prEformed vitamin A and D3 which are supposed to be antagonistic to each other...so why doesn't it cause an imbalance....or is it that its correcting an imbalance in the D3 rather than providing the vitamin A?
 
kinyonga said:
People seem to use cod liver oil type sources which often contain prEformed vitamin A and D3 which are supposed to be antagonistic to each other...so why doesn't it cause an imbalance....or is it that its correcting an imbalance in the D3 rather than providing the vitamin A?
Click to expand...

The most important thing when it comes to A and D is that they are in a balanced ratio (optimum is 10 parts A (retinol) to one part D. If the proper ratio is provided, there is a very wide range of input levels that can be utilized without risk of hypervitamintosis of either one.

The only thing you could consider antagonistic about their relationship is that a deficiency of one can more easily lead to toxicity of the other.

So low levels of D with low levels of A (but both having the correct ratio to each other) would be less potentially dangerous than high levels of D and low levels of A, or High levels of A and low levels of D......

This is one reason I am not a proponent of using different supplements to provide A and D separately. If you are using two different supplements, it is very difficult to get the rotation right so that you end up with ten times the amount of A to D (on a IU basis)....

How many people have ever sat down and tried to figure out the vitamin A to D ratio of your supplementation as it relates to the amount of calcium you are providing.....?

I add the calcium to the equation because we need to balance these vitamins to the amount of available calcium to insure there is sufficient activity to metabolize and assimilate the calcium.

Too much A and D in the presence of a lot of calcium can lead to calcification, while the same levels of A and D in the presence of a balanced level of Calcium may not lead to calcification (the calcium isn't available)

It is quite a puzzle and I have realized that the more I learn about it, the less I know!
 
clarkrw3 said:
In desperation I started calling people that had vaguely mentioned stuff about performed A on the forum but had to some degree been blasted for it. I started using the described method above for adding supplementing with liquid gel caps on one feeder every 2 weeks (for chams with problems) and used the Repashy dust on one feeder on the weeks I didn't use the liquid. Slowly his aim started to get close. His shooting was getting harder and farther and instead of missing by inches he was missing by Centimeters. In the past couple of days he has started hitting. :D:D:D:D This morning he took 5 bugs out of my fingers and only missed once.

I got my first cham from a very well respected source but I found out that they give Reptivite and D3 4 times more than is suggested by this forum. I feel that if I had done less research and just gone with the care sheet I would never of had an issue. I think the drastic change from 8 times a month to 2 times a month was one of the factors that lead to my chams deficiency. The other factor is using a Rep-Cal Herptivite that does not include performed A. These problems seem to be much more prevalent in Panthers, which leads many to believe that Vailed and other Montane species have a greater ability to convert beta carotene than do Pathers.
Click to expand...

These are some great observations that I think are important to note.

I wanted to make a comparison to frogs of all things because I think there are possibly some similar issues at work and I know that a lot of people who keep chameleons might not have any knowledge of Dart Frog Nutrition for example.

In frogs, Vitamin A deficiency has proven to be responsible for quite a few long term issues that have plagued the hobby. Tadpole development, and the dreaded "Spindly Leg Syndrome" is a development issue where the tadpoles develop deformed legs at metamorphosis, and in sever cases, just hatch and die, or never hatch.

Lab studies have been done on the frogs and tadpoles and shown that they are deficient in Vitamin A. Supplementation of Retinol has proved to reverse these conditions even in pairs of Dendrobates that have produced no offspring for five years or more.

More relative to this discussion, is another frog malady that is called "Short Tongue Syndrome" which when you really look at it, seems quite similar in description to these chameleon tongue issues. These frogs can't put their tongue out far enough to catch bugs, or when they hit, the tongue doesn't stick to the bug.

Vitamin A supplementation has again proven to reverse this condition in frogs. There are tons of threads related to this on the DendroBoard Forums.

Another noteworthy tidbit, is that as you all probably know, frogs are amongst the most sensitive species when it comes to disease, reaction to chemicals, and supplementation. I look at them as the "Canary in a Coal Mine" when it comes to evaluating toxicity.

So far, the addition of Retinol in the Frog hobby has done nothing but improve captive husbandry. The frog hobbyists were very resistant to the use of Retinol in supplementation for a long time, but over the last five years or so, a lot of thinking has changed. I really think that Chameleon hobbyists will have similar experiences as more and more open minded keepers step outside the box so to speak.

Back to Tongue issues..... there are two potential conditions at work here, or a possible combination of the two. First, eye site can obviously effect aim, and second, actual tongue issues can be the problem. Both of which, I believe might be signs of Hypovitamintosis A.

If anyone on here has Chameleons with STS (short tongue syndrome) or vision problems, please PM me. I would like to put together an informal study and would like some participation from keepers with known issues.

As far as different types of Chameleons and their requirements. I do agree that a deeper look is needed. All of the work the Kammers have done with Retinol has been done with Panthers. Time will tell if the same regiment works across the board, or for example, supplementing every other feeding instead of every feeding is sufficient for Montane species...

Allen
 
We seem to be straying rather far from the purpose / topic of the thread. The OP hasnt reported any issues, rather is asking for advise on supplementing a Jackson.
 
Sandrachameleon said..."We seem to be straying rather far from the purpose / topic of the thread. The OP hasnt reported any issues, rather is asking for advise on supplementing a Jackson. "...Maybe one of the moderators can separate it into two threads?

Allen Repashy said..."The most important thing when it comes to A and D is that they are in a balanced ratio (optimum is 10 parts A (retinol) to one part D"...I agree with this...but if the chameleon was short of vitamin A and you add both A and D in the 10/1 ratio you will still be out of balance.

You said..."The only thing you could consider antagonistic about their relationship is that a deficiency of one can more easily lead to toxicity of the other"...Dr. Lopez says..."vitamin A and vitamin D are antagonistic (incompletely)to each other. While both may be at toxic levels, the effects are not as evident due to their interaction"....
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html

You said..."So low levels of D with low levels of A (but both having the correct ratio to each other) would be less potentially dangerous than high levels of D and low levels of A, or High levels of A and low levels of D"......the imbalances are definitely not good news....but I'm not sure what would happen if both were in ratio but low.

You said..."This is one reason I am not a proponent of using different supplements to provide A and D separately. If you are using two different supplements, it is very difficult to get the rotation right so that you end up with ten times the amount of A to D (on a IU basis)"....I'm not a fan of using much D3 or much prEformed vitamin A.

You said..."How many people have ever sat down and tried to figure out the vitamin A to D ratio of your supplementation as it relates to the amount of calcium you are providing.....?...not me....

You said..."Too much A and D in the presence of a lot of calcium can lead to calcification, while the same levels of A and D in the presence of a balanced level of Calcium may not lead to calcification (the calcium isn't available)"...not sure about this. Too much D3 along with too much calcium would likely lead to calcification...but I'm not sure how the vitamin A fits into the equation. Too much of both will likely lead to organ damage too.

You said..."It is quite a puzzle and I have realized that the more I learn about it, the less I know!"...most of the time I feel this way too.
 
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