Sustainable Captive Breeding Populations

[jajeanpierre]

I've heard that chameleons do not breed in captivity for more than five generations without the introduction of wild caught blood.

Does that still hold true?

Has anyone successfully bred healthy, vigorous hatches past F5 with no wild caught blood?

I think the correct labeling of generations is to label them with the lowest number, i.e., if a breeding is F2 x F5, the resulting offspring are F3. I've noticed that many label that breeding as F6.

Has anyone gotten to F6 with no wild caught blood closer than six generations back?

Is this only a chameleon problem or is it a problem with reptiles in general?

Thanks for any insight.

 

[laurie]

Go have a look at Kevin Stanford and carpets. He has bred them for over 10 years and is producing true f6 even as we speak. He was writing articles about his breeding project years ago. Ask any of the experts, like Chris Anderson, Bill Strand, Trace, etc.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Go have a look at Kevin Stanford and carpets. He has bred them for over 10 years and is producing true f6 even as we speak. He was writing articles about his breeding project years ago. Ask any of the experts, like Chris Anderson, Bill Strand, Trace, etc.

I was hoping people would share on a public forum. I don't know who the experts are. I didn't think it appropriate to just PM everyone who might have some insight.

 

[Dooley1]

I've heard that chameleons do not breed in captivity for more than five generations without the introduction of wild caught blood.

Does that still hold true?

Has anyone successfully bred healthy, vigorous hatches past F5 with no wild caught blood?

I think the correct labeling of generations is to label them with the lowest number, i.e., if a breeding is F2 x F5, the resulting offspring are F3. I've noticed that many label that breeding as F6.

Has anyone gotten to F6 with no wild caught blood closer than six generations back?

Is this only a chameleon problem or is it a problem with reptiles in general?

Thanks for any insight.

I don't think that it ever held true. I don't know of any real evidence to prove that is true or untrue. I haven't read that in a long time. I just think that having separate unrelated lines for that many generations of all but a couple species is unlikely to have those mates to choose from, making using WC or CH of a different fillial generation likely.

I do not have true F6 Laurie. I have 6th generation removed from the wild on the mother's side and have been saving babies for 10 years from that mother's line, however, I breed with F1 or F2 males each year out of convenience. that would technically make the babies F3 even though they are removed 6 generations on the mother's side.

I don't see why this is a problem, unless you're referring to inbreeding. Also, perhaps you have read some articles from Linda Davison or Sticky Tongue Farms referring to this Janet?

 

[jajeanpierre]

I don't think that it ever held true. I don't know of any real evidence to prove that is true or untrue. I haven't read that in a long time. I just think that having separate unrelated lines for that many generations of all but a couple species is unlikely to have those mates to choose from, making using WC or CH of a different fillial generation likely.

I do not have true F6 Laurie. I have 6th generation removed from the wild on the mother's side and have been saving babies for 10 years from that mother's line, however, I breed with F1 or F2 males each year out of convenience. that would technically make the babies F3 even though they are removed 6 generations on the mother's side.

I don't see why this is a problem, unless you're referring to inbreeding. Also, perhaps you have read some articles from Linda Davison or Sticky Tongue Farms referring to this Janet?

There's been a few things I've read about it, but nothing scientific. Yes, I think I read something in Linda Davison's book. Plus I read some really old threads here discussing it and referring to one of the founders of CIN leaving the hobby because she claimed you could not breed past F5 without bringing in new blood. I also spoke to three herp keepers from the San Antonio zoo who claimed you needed wild caughts and would always need wild caughts to breed them in captivity, with the importer of my quads agreeing with them.

I just wondered if that was considered true, or if keepers/breeders have discovered and overcome whatever was lacking in their husbandry practices. It doesn't make sense that a species would self destruct after five generations in captivity. There had to be a reason and wondered what progress has been made since the 90s.

 

[Montium]

Well for one thing a much larger variation in food has become easy to find since the 90's. I think a varied diet plays a large roll in keeping chams happy, they seem to enjoy certain food items at certain times of the year. This may not be true for everyone but it is for most of my chams.

 

[laurie]

I was hoping people would share on a public forum. I don't know who the experts are. I didn't think it appropriate to just PM everyone who might have some insight.

Two things and this is NOT to start a battle.

First, how can people know that you are looking for information about long term breeding if you don't just ask? You don't need to PM everyone, I just gave an example I was aware of.

Second, on the CIN thing, Bill Strand knows the people involved, might want to ask him what happened. I am not telling you to pm everyone rather telling you who might have information you want that I do not have.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Two things and this is NOT to start a battle.

First, how can people know that you are looking for information about long term breeding if you don't just ask? You don't need to PM everyone, I just gave an example I was aware of.

Second, on the CIN thing, Bill Strand is who did the CIN, might want to ask him what happened. I am not telling you to pm everyone rather telling you who might have information you want that I do not have.

I'm really baffled by your post, Laurie. You suggest I just ask, but I thought I did ask in my original post when I started this thread. I thought it was rather clear what information I was looking for from the title of the thread to the same question being asked a couple of different ways: Has anyone gotten past F5 without the introduction of wild-caught blood? and, Is it a problem?

You don't want to start a battle???? Where did that come from????

 

[jajeanpierre]

Well for one thing a much larger variation in food has become easy to find since the 90's. I think a varied diet plays a large roll in keeping chams happy, they seem to enjoy certain food items at certain times of the year. This may not be true for everyone but it is for most of my chams.

Thank you.

 

[laurie]

I'm really baffled by your post, Laurie. You suggest I just ask, but I thought I did ask in my original post when I started this thread. I thought it was rather clear what information I was looking for from the title of the thread to the same question being asked a couple of different ways: Has anyone gotten past F5 without the introduction of wild-caught blood? and, Is it a problem?

You don't want to start a battle???? Where did that come from????

I just referred you to some people who I though could help and might not see your thread. You ask and I answered, but with names, I have not done it myself. Quads are only up to f3 as far as I know. perry might be past that, you could ask him.

I said no battle, as I often come across wrong to you, that is why I seldom post on your threads.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I just referred you to some people who I though could help and might not see your thread. You ask and I answered, but with names, I have not done it myself. Quads are only up to f3 as far as I know. perry might be past that, you could ask him.

I said no battle, as I often come across wrong to you, that is why I seldom post on your threads.

Thank you for clearing that up. I was a little taken aback by your first sentence. Please don't hesitate to reply to my questions. You have a lot to offer new quad keepers like me, and I have a lot to learn. I know it is a one-way street right now, but it might not always be so.

I talked for some time with the three herp keepers from the San Antonio Zoo and they insisted that wild-caught blood was necessary, and breeders could never get away with the need for new wild-caught blood. I was wondering what the experiences of dedicated chameleon breeders were. A zoo keeper is not necessarily as knowledgeable as some of the hobbyists.

It might be that F5 without any wild-caught blood has not been done simply because of circumstances. For example, breeders might not stay with the species that long; or, they don't have enough diverse genetic material that is strictly captive bred so need unrelated individuals and wild caught fits the bill perfectly.

I had just heard it was a problem and wondered if that was really true or just something that has been repeated enough that everyone believes it's true. What was true in the 90s might not be today.

I was just looking for information on the sustainability of quads in captivity without importing and whether the hatch rates/health of animals suffered over many generations.

On a side note, I just had a fecal done on one of my babies from the February import. It was free of parasites but the vet said there was some large bacteria she couldn't identify. The baby has grown from 17g to 43g and is doing really well so she joked about her being from Africa (with all it's nasty infections) and to just leave her alone. She also added that the current philosophy to treating was to take the approach that if it isn't broken, don't fix it. She pointed out that veterinarian medicine really didn't know what was normal bacteria flora in a chameleon. Could it be that after several generations, they lose the diversity of gut bacteria--just as humans do--and this is having an impact on their health and sustainability over many generations?

 

[Mike Fisher]

Has nothing to do with how many generations, it has to do with the available gene pool diversity.

After all, how many generations of veileds have been produced with the limited few WC that were originally brought in?

Blanket statements like that come from certain breeders that start out with a small colony and after just a few generations run out of genetic diversity within their colony. They either can bring in unrelated lines from another breeder, or WC. If they don't do that, the resulting offspring will show decreased vigor and higher mortality. No surprises there.

The biggest stumbling block is that for certain species there might only be a few breeders in the world, so obtaining WC can be easier at times. Barring restriction by CITES anyway.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Has nothing to do with how many generations, it has to do with the available gene pool diversity.

After all, how many generations of veileds have been produced with the limited few WC that were originally brought in?

Blanket statements like that come from certain breeders that start out with a small colony and after just a few generations run out of genetic diversity within their colony. They either can bring in unrelated lines from another breeder, or WC. If they don't do that, the resulting offspring will show decreased vigor and higher mortality. No surprises there.

The biggest stumbling block is that for certain species there might only be a few breeders in the world, so obtaining WC can be easier at times. Barring restriction by CITES anyway.

Thank you.

Veileds were the chameleon that came to mind as disproving that hypothesis, but I honestly have no idea if veileds are imported or not. They are so cheap, I would think they are not imported, but that's just a guess on my part.

Are wild-caught Veileds ever imported? Captive bred from someplace like Europe?

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Has nothing to do with how many generations, it has to do with the available gene pool diversity.

After all, how many generations of veileds have been produced with the limited few WC that were originally brought in?

Blanket statements like that come from certain breeders that start out with a small colony and after just a few generations run out of genetic diversity within their colony. They either can bring in unrelated lines from another breeder, or WC. If they don't do that, the resulting offspring will show decreased vigor and higher mortality. No surprises there.

The biggest stumbling block is that for certain species there might only be a few breeders in the world, so obtaining WC can be easier at times. Barring restriction by CITES anyway.

This.


It does not take a Doctorate to understand Genetics. Lets say you have 20 individuals, 10 pairs.

Each of those 10 pairs gives you a litter. You only cross the offspring from few litters and keep track of the blood lines. In theory those ten blood lines could create a huge gene pool if managed. You would be able to continue for as many generations as it would take until you ended up with every animal being a first cousin to each other (My opinion anyway). Once you hit that you are coming up on a proverbial genetic wall. So yes in some ways you need to add in some new blood. On the other hand, if you have a fair sized pool, you can breed any number of captive generations.

Trying to get by with just the two blood lines Like Bill/Laurie/Kevin/Tylene did was only going to get us so far. This is why the first and second imports of the species were so important. Getting them into the hands of folks who can further these new bloodlines was critical.

And with the numbers we have, if managed, we should be able to diversify enough to cover multiple generations. The real issue for any of us is simple, none of us have the room, finances, or time to be breeding Quads in such quantity. Hence us working together and placing animals. I fully plan on getting a pair from my imported line out to Laurie and or others in our group. At some point I'll hit one of them up for one of their bloodlines. The juggling act if done right can go well past any F-number

 

[Mike Fisher]

The other problem that I didn't address is "loss of vigor" within a colony that has not been interbred.

A very touchy subject because it involves morality.

In the wild, only the strongest genetics survive. In captivity we go to great lengths to keep them all alive. Some of those runts go on to produce offspring that lack size and vigor. We are propagating weak genetics by keeping them all alive and then breeding them.

Now, big breeders of panther and veiled will hold back only the alpha animals to continue on with, but only if they have enough stock to do that with. But the smaller weaker ones may go to customers that will later breed them.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Thank you.

Veileds were the chameleon that came to mind as disproving that hypothesis, but I honestly have no idea if veileds are imported or not. They are so cheap, I would think they are not imported, but that's just a guess on my part.

Are wild-caught Veileds ever imported? Captive bred from someplace like Europe?

Veileds were originally imported from Yemen. I worked with the first few groups that were imported to the USA.

No need to import veileds to the USA anymore. WC veileds are now available originating from Florida. Some of those specimens are enormous rivaling the original imports from Yemen.

 

[laurie]

This.


It does not take a Doctorate to understand Genetics. Lets say you have 20 individuals, 10 pairs.

Each of those 10 pairs gives you a litter. You only cross the offspring from few litters and keep track of the blood lines. In theory those ten blood lines could create a huge gene pool if managed. You would be able to continue for as many generations as it would take until you ended up with every animal being a first cousin to each other (My opinion anyway). Once you hit that you are coming up on a proverbial genetic wall. So yes in some ways you need to add in some new blood. On the other hand, if you have a fair sized pool, you can breed any number of captive generations.

Trying to get by with just the two blood lines Like Bill/Laurie/Kevin/Tylene did was only going to get us so far. This is why the first and second imports of the species were so important. Getting them into the hands of folks who can further these new bloodlines was critical.

And with the numbers we have, if managed, we should be able to diversify enough to cover multiple generations. The real issue for any of us is simple, none of us have the room, finances, or time to be breeding Quads in such quantity. Hence us working together and placing animals. I fully plan on getting a pair from my imported line out to Laurie and or others in our group. At some point I'll hit one of them up for one of their bloodlines. The juggling act if done right can go well past any F-number

Hit one of us up? We will all be swaping babies. Kevin have some due in a few months.