rsepiphyte
Established Member
You know i still have all of the issues of the CIN from way back when! LOL!
The future of Chameleon Breeding
- Thread starter nick barta
- Start date
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Very much a misunderstanding. Of course, not hard, considering that I wrote it so late after a long shift. I was trying to point out the differences between how we select our breeders and how they are "selected" in the wild.
I'm referring to populations of animals that are based on a founder/group of founders. Island populations, usually, where natural selection deals with the problems of a small gene pool. A small gene pool can still result in a healthy population with proper pruning - and nature is not afraid to cull. You will have significantly higher rates of recessive traits popping up. Most would be bad, but some might be advantageous in the situation. Trying to replicate the selective forces of nature is impossible to a hobbyist. Getting healthy populations even WITH fresh bloodlines is hard enough.
When I say that it isn't exactly what nature does, I mean it literally - it isn't EXACTLY what nature does. As in, we do not do it the same way, selecting for the same traits, that nature does.
While we might select the brightest and biggest, natural forces will result in the fittest for the situation. We might breed big, bright animals with genetic weaknesses.
For example: How many animals started out the populations of veileds in Florida? Couldn't have been much. Still, there were some whoppers running around. I didn't see much variation in their coloration though. Some of the biggest and best looking veileds I have seen in a while were FL WC. Despite the much larger breeding population of the US hobbyists, a few small populations in FL were resulting in bigger animals. From what I saw, of course. Lots of variables, of course, but the science of natural selection is interesting.
I'm glad so many people are still in business in this hobby. I wouldn't be in the medical field if I didn't get into biology/zoology. And these tree-lizards are what drew me in!
I'm referring to populations of animals that are based on a founder/group of founders. Island populations, usually, where natural selection deals with the problems of a small gene pool. A small gene pool can still result in a healthy population with proper pruning - and nature is not afraid to cull. You will have significantly higher rates of recessive traits popping up. Most would be bad, but some might be advantageous in the situation. Trying to replicate the selective forces of nature is impossible to a hobbyist. Getting healthy populations even WITH fresh bloodlines is hard enough.
When I say that it isn't exactly what nature does, I mean it literally - it isn't EXACTLY what nature does. As in, we do not do it the same way, selecting for the same traits, that nature does.
While we might select the brightest and biggest, natural forces will result in the fittest for the situation. We might breed big, bright animals with genetic weaknesses.
For example: How many animals started out the populations of veileds in Florida? Couldn't have been much. Still, there were some whoppers running around. I didn't see much variation in their coloration though. Some of the biggest and best looking veileds I have seen in a while were FL WC. Despite the much larger breeding population of the US hobbyists, a few small populations in FL were resulting in bigger animals. From what I saw, of course. Lots of variables, of course, but the science of natural selection is interesting.
I'm glad so many people are still in business in this hobby. I wouldn't be in the medical field if I didn't get into biology/zoology. And these tree-lizards are what drew me in!
pssh
Avid Member
Just pointing out, bigger isnt always better in nature, even if they are healthy otherwise. Bigger could very well result in more fatalities in the wild. Hence why there are various species of chameleons that range in size from one of the smallest vertibrates in the world, to the giant parsons.
ataraxia
Avid Member
SEVEN pages and we still have not answered the question...
I think the first post was a bit vague in asking the question without knowing the generation lineage. It would also help to know how Ardi came to her conclusions by knowing the generation lineage she bred.
Basically, are we talking about inbreeding (line breeding, back crossing, outcrossing) or are we talking about breeding unrelated genes (same Filial) all the way through?
Each variant is going to have a different outcome.
Each animal is created differently.Going off of one study/experience would not prove anything but it would still be interesting to see the findings.
I think the first post was a bit vague in asking the question without knowing the generation lineage. It would also help to know how Ardi came to her conclusions by knowing the generation lineage she bred.
Basically, are we talking about inbreeding (line breeding, back crossing, outcrossing) or are we talking about breeding unrelated genes (same Filial) all the way through?
Each variant is going to have a different outcome.
Each animal is created differently.Going off of one study/experience would not prove anything but it would still be interesting to see the findings.
Last edited:
Kiwiflage
Established Member
That's a very interesting topic. I wonder if there is a certain amount of in breeding due to the amount of offspring per chameleon and a hobby breeders urge to keep going. It seems to me that most chameleons would come from the same bloodline at some point or another
Kiwiflage
Established Member
SEVEN pages and we still have not answered the question...
I think the first post was a bit vague in asking the question without knowing the generation lineage. It would also help to know how Ardi came to her conclusions by knowing the generation lineage she bred.
Basically, are we talking about inbreeding (line breeding, was back crossing involved, outcrossing) or are we talking about breeding unrelated genes (same Filial) all the way through?
Each variant is going to have a different outcome.
Each animal is created differently.Going off of one study/experience would not prove anything but it would still be interesting to see the findings.
You said it all, you just beat me to it!
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Hey Nick,
I am not familiar with the quad market specifically, but going with your numbers, assuming 100 animals, I do not believe it can sustain for more than 5-10 generations Two of the added problems with chameleons, vs. such as bearded dragons, is that they have an inherently higher failure rate, requiring more animals to sustain a certain level of production, and secondly that any in-breeding will doom that bloodline in short order. All chameleons are very unforgiving species.
Looking at panthers, we have Locales here in the US that cannot sustain because we do not have enough animals stateside, and because Madagascar has cut off those Locales. Nosy Mitsio being at the top of the list. Pursuing pedigree Mitsio's is now a fool's errand. Then come the Faly's. More than half of what is currently offered is polluted. Speaking for myself, I hope to bring several hundred to market in 2014. But my gene pool is limited, and the outlook for bringing in new blood is a dead end street. It might run for a few generations, but it is headed for further dilution eventually.
It is also my opinion that we have enough panthers in the US to sustain the more common Locales forever. The only problem with establishing wild populations in South Florida are the folks who come and poach them. Otherwise, they do fine south of Lake Okeechobee where broken forest can be had.
bobcochran
Chameleon Enthusiast
Let me start out by saying I have nothing but respect for Ardi Abate. She had a wealth of information and was a tireless worker in gathering and disseminating information all for the good of the worlds chameleons in the wild and the cage, she certainly helped me a lot.
That being said, there just wasn't that much reliable information on chameleons then (i.e. when I took my panther to the vet he told me a sick chameleon is a dead chameleon).
When I was at Ardi's house she had all her chameleons in one room, she had more species than I had seen anywhere. She had good access to a lot of cheap wild caught chameleons which I think the majority of us would find pretty seductive. It seems to me that when you start getting further into captive bred generations and they're living in an environment that is relatively clean with low exposure to pathogens/parasites, the immune system development would be less than in a lizard in the wild. Keeping f3 or f4 generation chameleons in the same room with wild caught animals might not be the best environment to conduct experiments on the hardiness of captive bred generations.
That being said, there just wasn't that much reliable information on chameleons then (i.e. when I took my panther to the vet he told me a sick chameleon is a dead chameleon).
When I was at Ardi's house she had all her chameleons in one room, she had more species than I had seen anywhere. She had good access to a lot of cheap wild caught chameleons which I think the majority of us would find pretty seductive. It seems to me that when you start getting further into captive bred generations and they're living in an environment that is relatively clean with low exposure to pathogens/parasites, the immune system development would be less than in a lizard in the wild. Keeping f3 or f4 generation chameleons in the same room with wild caught animals might not be the best environment to conduct experiments on the hardiness of captive bred generations.
Hey Jim,
I agree with the failure rate of chameleons v bearded dragons, and the result being a larger amount of chameleons to get genetic strength.
I am interested in your statement that even when "you bring in several hundred Faly's, that your gene pool is limited." Do you mean that your exporter is only pulling Faly's from a limited region, so the gene pool is already diluted, and that if the several hundred came from different regions, you would have a greater longevity for further strong generations?
Nick
Eric,
Come back from the dark side of the force, being without chameleons is just…wrong!
Nick
Ardi and Ken were the foundation of the information, I hope they are both doing well too.
Nick
SEVEN pages and we still have not answered the question...
I think the first post was a bit vague in asking the question without knowing the generation lineage. It would also help to know how Ardi came to her conclusions by knowing the generation lineage she bred.
Basically, are we talking about inbreeding (line breeding, back crossing, outcrossing) or are we talking about breeding unrelated genes (same Filial) all the way through?
Each variant is going to have a different outcome.
Each animal is created differently.Going off of one study/experience would not prove anything but it would still be interesting to see the findings.
My OP was vague, as could only share what Ardi had communicated. The specifics you (and I) would like to know were not offered, more of her conclusions were.
Regarding inbreeding in the hobby, I suspect that we might be surprised at how many breeders intentionally and without intent breed back into common lines.
Nick
Bob,
You were fortunate to visit with Ardi, all my communication was by phone. I had a chance to talk to Ardi about housing chameleons together, and she told me that she had large outdoor screened enclosures. She also was adamant about quarantining new arrivals until they had passed veterinarian exams. One keeper in the Northwest that had dozens of various species in a "jungle room" with no quarantine process was in conflict with what Ardi believed, and practiced. She also was adamant that in the larger outside enclosures that animals were sectioned off from each other. I remember she mentioned that if the Southern California weather got too could for her chameleons, she would bring them indoors. Perhaps that is the time frame you were at her home, or before she built the outdoor enclosures.
I agree that immune systems may be compromised in Captive-Bred animals, and in addition, we probably introduce them to respiratory infections, vitamin and mineral imbalance, that they do not have significant risk of in the wild.
Nick
This has been an enjoyable thread, challenging me to think through my thoughts. It has opened up lots of interesting and valuable discussions.
My goal is not to stop or decrease the existing thoughts and debates, but to track back to my original question.
I will ask it again!
If you have bred chameleons to F5, please tell us, and your observations of that accomplishment.
CHEERS!
Nick
My goal is not to stop or decrease the existing thoughts and debates, but to track back to my original question.
I will ask it again!
If you have bred chameleons to F5, please tell us, and your observations of that accomplishment.
CHEERS!
Nick
Absolutely dead on target post!!!!! In short, I will be importing some WC chams but will be VERY picky about who I sell them too. 20 plus years ago when I was a PLAYER in this business it was a given that only 5% of the chams imported would be alive in 6 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now just think about THAT!!!!!!!!!! The natural habitat of MANY of our beloved chams is being destroyed at an alarming rate! We must all do what we can to preserve the natural habitat of ALL these amazing species. That said,I think we must establish a healthy captive CBB population of as many of these wonderful creatures as possible so that in the event of natural habitat destruction we will still have as many species as possible in captivity to live on and not become an endangered species or extinct species. If you have ever seen how these fantastic creatures were collected you would be sick!!! It is not un common for local collectors to have 2-3 foot deep containers full of chams all piled high on top of each other in a given container writhing on top of each other until they get to the collection site. Like I said...... 5% livilibitly is a generous %. The truth of this business will make you SICK!!!!!!!!! We must ALL do what we con to protect and preserve these wonderful creatures!!!!
Sorry for my rant but it is a well informed RANT!!!!!
Steve
DanSB
Avid Member
Jim, I would like to respond, I'm sorry you take issue with most of my post but even with your information I stand by what I've said. If you care I can elaborate further but I don't think anyone really wants to hear my ideas on the subject.
Now to answer the original question which was if chameleons are sustainable in captivity. The answer is yes, probably. We need to use genetics, logic, and kinship to figure it out.
Assume F0 is WC F1 are their kids.
First, what numbers are we talking about? To get to F4 with no related pairings you need to start with 8 pairs of wild caught. That doubles for each generation thereafter.
So the question now is how closely related can a chameleon be with no ill effects. Jim said nothing closer than second cousins. F4 generations could be raised with 16 starters if selectively bred which would be 3rd cousins. But lets go to F5 to be safe.
This means if you selectively breed and keep careful records you should be able to breed indefinitely in captivity with 16 pairs of unrelated wild caught chams and never breed closer than 4 generation back relatives.
If there were many hundreds imported with careful breeding and good record keeping indefinite captive populations should be possible.
The problem being tracking lineage, determining relation of wild caught pairs etc. It is possible for a whole shipment to be related, or have the same grandfather etc. It is much easier to just get new wild caught blood.
But if the community was serious (which lets face it nobody is) it is possible to sustain a captive population.
There is genetic testing available.
Lets say for instance you want to sustain quads, knowing wild caught is next to impossible. First thing to do is to pay a few hundred dollars per animal to work out relationships. If there aren't at least 16 unrelated pairs (3 to 4 generations back to a common ancestor) your likely hosed. But if there is, and a group of keepers is willing to share a common lineage database and work towards a common goal there is a chance of success.
It would of course be beneficial to add wc blood whenever possible, and if there are any nasty recessive traits like there obviously is in panthers (according to Jim) the bloodlines could get weak. Here is where it is important to cull (not breed) any weak or sick animal. Take only the strongest from each clutch.
Good records can also show longest living / most fertile ancestors to help choose perspective pairings.
Now to answer the original question which was if chameleons are sustainable in captivity. The answer is yes, probably. We need to use genetics, logic, and kinship to figure it out.
Assume F0 is WC F1 are their kids.
First, what numbers are we talking about? To get to F4 with no related pairings you need to start with 8 pairs of wild caught. That doubles for each generation thereafter.
So the question now is how closely related can a chameleon be with no ill effects. Jim said nothing closer than second cousins. F4 generations could be raised with 16 starters if selectively bred which would be 3rd cousins. But lets go to F5 to be safe.
This means if you selectively breed and keep careful records you should be able to breed indefinitely in captivity with 16 pairs of unrelated wild caught chams and never breed closer than 4 generation back relatives.
If there were many hundreds imported with careful breeding and good record keeping indefinite captive populations should be possible.
The problem being tracking lineage, determining relation of wild caught pairs etc. It is possible for a whole shipment to be related, or have the same grandfather etc. It is much easier to just get new wild caught blood.
But if the community was serious (which lets face it nobody is) it is possible to sustain a captive population.
There is genetic testing available.
Lets say for instance you want to sustain quads, knowing wild caught is next to impossible. First thing to do is to pay a few hundred dollars per animal to work out relationships. If there aren't at least 16 unrelated pairs (3 to 4 generations back to a common ancestor) your likely hosed. But if there is, and a group of keepers is willing to share a common lineage database and work towards a common goal there is a chance of success.
It would of course be beneficial to add wc blood whenever possible, and if there are any nasty recessive traits like there obviously is in panthers (according to Jim) the bloodlines could get weak. Here is where it is important to cull (not breed) any weak or sick animal. Take only the strongest from each clutch.
Good records can also show longest living / most fertile ancestors to help choose perspective pairings.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Nosy Faly and Nosy Mitsio are island Locales. Collecting of chameleons is no longer allowed from either island, and has not been for over a year. With no new wild blood, and that many exporters were deliberately substituting Ambanja and Nosy Be females for Faly females for several years, there are very few pure bloodlines in captivity.
fluxlizard
Avid Member
Paradoxically, this whole thread is making me wonder if crossing locales would improve genetic vigour in captive populations. Whole other can of worms though.
Also wondering where to go nowadays to get wild caught animals to ensure genetic vigour for captive breeding projects. I used to know several sources, nowadays they are all either out of business or no longer selling wc panthers. And I never see wc advertised. Which is making me wonder if they are all going to a few big breeders already (Like Jim) and so the only way to ensure I'm getting unrelated animals not too many generations in for the breeding project I'm putting together is to buy the offspring of these breeders. I'd really like some comments/thoughts on this issue as I'm trying to put a nice post-fire group of ambilobes together at present time and although I'm sure the financial side is peanuts compared to some here, it is at this moment in my life what I'd consider a really costly and important to succeed project. I don't want to be stuck holding the bag on animals that cannot produce healthy offspring because they are too many generations in...
Also wondering where to go nowadays to get wild caught animals to ensure genetic vigour for captive breeding projects. I used to know several sources, nowadays they are all either out of business or no longer selling wc panthers. And I never see wc advertised. Which is making me wonder if they are all going to a few big breeders already (Like Jim) and so the only way to ensure I'm getting unrelated animals not too many generations in for the breeding project I'm putting together is to buy the offspring of these breeders. I'd really like some comments/thoughts on this issue as I'm trying to put a nice post-fire group of ambilobes together at present time and although I'm sure the financial side is peanuts compared to some here, it is at this moment in my life what I'd consider a really costly and important to succeed project. I don't want to be stuck holding the bag on animals that cannot produce healthy offspring because they are too many generations in...
DanSB
Avid Member
Too many generations in...
This, in theory shouldn't be an issue. There is no biological reason for it. Granted I never did finish my degree in Biology but I studied enough to grasp the basics.
What is needed is a breeders registry much like AKC, CFA, or the countless horse, and livestock registries.
With a single repository for lineage information you can be clear what genetics you're breeding and have a good view on the health and survivability of said lineage.
A Chameleon Keepers Association that tracks lineage and issues "papers" just like with dogs would be an immeasurable boon to the hobby. It would allow breeders to command prices in measure with the care they put into it and allow buyers to have more confidence in what they are buying.
I think the hobby is now ripe for this kind of thing.
This, in theory shouldn't be an issue. There is no biological reason for it. Granted I never did finish my degree in Biology but I studied enough to grasp the basics.
What is needed is a breeders registry much like AKC, CFA, or the countless horse, and livestock registries.
With a single repository for lineage information you can be clear what genetics you're breeding and have a good view on the health and survivability of said lineage.
A Chameleon Keepers Association that tracks lineage and issues "papers" just like with dogs would be an immeasurable boon to the hobby. It would allow breeders to command prices in measure with the care they put into it and allow buyers to have more confidence in what they are buying.
I think the hobby is now ripe for this kind of thing.
