The future of Chameleon Breeding

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Jeremey I don't want to burst your bubble but Chamaleons play almost a zero role when it comes to conservation. I can only speak about Madagascar because I have been there. People there could care less if the chameleons disappear. Once you get back into the smaller villages people have one thought on their mind at the beginning of the day and it is how they are going to feed themselves and their families. We think with a first world mind set. They think about survival.

I do hope you get to visit there as it will open your eye's to the reality of life there.

Carl

Carl

A positive image of chameleons to the locals actually does play a big role for conservation of chameleons in Madagascar. My bubble is not burst and if I recall correctly it has been a while since you have gone to Madagascar. Ardi talked about building ecotourism for chameleons in Madagascar and that is an industry that is an industry that has been much built upon. Have a look.

http://www.tanalahorizon.com/madagaskar-reisen/fotoreisen/herpeto-research-expedition/

The technique of placing a worth of a species of imperiled animal to locals actually is a technique that has worked conserving other species around the globe. This instance I was correlating placing worth of chameleons to locals in regards to chameleon conservation. One other example would be the Mountain Gorillas (Gorilla beringei beringei) where the local community through positive image of the gorillas has got a huge role about the conservation of this species. This positive image or image of worth is a technique that is used around the globe for conservationist.

Cheers
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[jannb]

Jeremey I don't want to burst your bubble but Chamaleons play almost a zero role when it comes to conservation. I can only speak about Madagascar because I have been there. People there could care less if the chameleons disappear. Once you get back into the smaller villages people have one thought on their mind at the beginning of the day and it is how they are going to feed themselves and their families. We think with a first world mind set. They think about survival.

I do hope you get to visit there as it will open your eye's to the reality of life there.

Carl

I totally agree. We went to Maddy last November and the chameleons are the last thing on the minds of the village people. Most were scared of the chameleon and believe they bring them bad luck. The village people spent their days out finding and preparing food. Every morning the man goes out to fish to provide food for his family. The women goes into the forest looking for fruits they can eat. They come back to their hut late afternoon to prepare the food and eat. The next day they do the same thing over again. They live in poverty and are at least 20 years behind Africa.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I totally agree. We went to Maddy last November and the chameleons are the last thing on the minds of the village people. Most were scared of the chameleon and believe they bring them bad luck. The village people spent their days out finding and preparing food. Every morning the man goes out to fish to provide food for his family. The women goes into the forest looking for fruits they can eat. They come back to their hut late afternoon to prepare the food and eat. The next day they do the same thing over again. They live in poverty and are at least 20 years behind Africa.

Some Malagasy consider chameleons as demons. They value them as bad luck plus they are living a third world lifestyle. What I'm saying and what was one thing said that was even spoken by Ardi in her video "Madagascar a Land Like No Other" that with ecotourisn and placing some worth on chameleons. That worth provides an option or an out for an impoverished lifestyle and contributes even if only somewhat to chameleon conservation (changing to a positive image of chameleons). Even if it is difficult to notice.

 

[DanSB]

Some Malagasy consider chameleons as demons. They value them as bad luck plus they are living a third world lifestyle. What I'm saying and what was one thing said that was even spoken by Ardi in her video "Madagascar a Land Like No Other" that with ecotourisn and placing some worth on chameleons. That worth provides an option or an out for an impoverished lifestyle and contributes even if only somewhat to chameleon conservation (changing to a positive image of chameleons). Even if it is difficult to notice.

Jeremy is on the right track here. I don't care what the locals currently think about chameleons, their focus is indeed on survival. If chameleons become a part of said survival they will be valued and conserved. The locals are not stupid barbarian heathens incapable of logic or thought. This mentality is incorrect and outdated.

If you want to save chameleons build them into the economy. If you want to disallow all exports and simply curate the natural habitat for posterity it will get strip farmed and hunted out. This is reality. Conservation in poor countries must have an economic upside to be successful.

As far as breeding multiple generations F5 plus we as a group need to decide to breed for survival traits as well as heavily cull and or not breed any less than perfect specimens. This along with limited wild stock could allow for long term success.

I also think the entire system is flawed. I would like to see importation regulated more thoroughly. There is NO reason any wild caught animal should go to an inexperienced person or one who isn't planning to breed.

If a breeders license / permit was required to purchase wild caught and a better quality was demanded for import this would do several things: wild caught value would increase, increasing the quality and capture techniques because fewer healthy quality animals would be exported.

Those who have a permit would be able to demand a premium price and make the endeavor more worthwhile.

At present the export rewards quantities of any garbage animal rather than well cared for healthy animals.

 

[CarlC]

Carl

A positive image of chameleons to the locals actually does play a big role for conservation of chameleons in Madagascar. My bubble is not burst and if I recall correctly it has been a while since you have gone to Madagascar. Ardi talked about building ecotourism for chameleons in Madagascar and that is an industry that is an industry that has been much built upon. Have a look.

http://www.tanalahorizon.com/madagaskar-reisen/fotoreisen/herpeto-research-expedition/

I think we are getting away from the point of the thread. Lets start a new thread to continue this conversation.

Carl

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Jeremy is on the right track here. I don't care what the locals currently think about chameleons, their focus is indeed on survival. If chameleons become a part of said survival they will be valued and conserved. The locals are not stupid barbarian heathens incapable of logic or thought. This mentality is incorrect and outdated.

If you want to save chameleons build them into the economy. If you want to disallow all exports and simply curate the natural habitat for posterity it will get strip farmed and hunted out. This is reality. Conservation in poor countries must have an economic upside to be successful.

As far as breeding multiple generations F5 plus we as a group need to decide to breed for survival traits as well as heavily cull and or not breed any less than perfect specimens. This along with limited wild stock could allow for long term success.

I also think the entire system is flawed. I would like to see importation regulated more thoroughly. There is NO reason any wild caught animal should go to an inexperienced person or one who isn't planning to breed.

If a breeders license / permit was required to purchase wild caught and a better quality was demanded for import this would do several things: wild caught value would increase, increasing the quality and capture techniques because fewer healthy quality animals would be exported.

Those who have a permit would be able to demand a premium price and make the endeavor more worthwhile.

At present the export rewards quantities of any garbage animal rather than well cared for healthy animals.

I think many ecotour groups would pay decent amount of money to spot some of the rarer species in the wild. Possibly Furcifer balteatus, Furcifer bifidus or Calumma capuroni (even though Calumma capuroni lives in a National Park) in their natural habitat. Plus with the Malagasy wages an extra fifty dollars US that is well worth the effort.

I think we are getting away from the point of the thread. Lets start a new thread to continue this conversation.

Carl

Seemed appropriate and pertinent at the time.

 

[CarlC]

I also think the entire system is flawed. I would like to see importation regulated more thoroughly. There is NO reason any wild caught animal should go to an inexperienced person or one who isn't planning to breed.

I totally agree with this thought. It would probably be hard to enforce unless as a group we arranged to purchase the whole quota issued for each species.

If a breeders license / permit was required to purchase wild caught and a better quality was demanded for import this would do several things: wild caught value would increase, increasing the quality and capture techniques because fewer healthy quality animals would be exported.

Again if the group bought the whole quota quality could be controlled through agreements with the exporter. This probably would not go over well with the large scale importers currently in business though.

Carl

 

[DanSB]

I totally agree with this thought. It would probably be hard to enforce unless as a group we arranged to purchase the whole quota issued for each species.



Again if the group bought the whole quota quality could be controlled through agreements with the exporter. This probably would not go over well with the large scale importers currently in business though.

Carl

It would only work as an addendum to Cites regulations. Individual permitting could be a source of revenue. What serious breeder wouldn't pay 500 USD a year for the privilege of having access to vetted healthy wild caught animals?

It wouldn't need to be a specific group, just better regulations as to who can purchase wild caught. It wouldn't be perfect but would cut down on kids buying 20 dollar senegals on impulse.

The large scale exporters / importers us into this mess. To be frank: screw them. If they change their business models to focus on quality over quantity it is much more sustainable.

 

[Jakeelias93]

so after reading this of and on, it seems like you guys are stuck on the problem that chameleons might not be able to stay a captive species for long if wc chams aren't introduced. but are the chameleons falling to survive? I've read a lot about their clutches getting smaller but if it's really that bad, couldn't you try to reproduce the wild with a little bit of land and a huge viv? seems out of reach for the average breeder but isn't that what the hobby is about? not everyone can do it. the only thing I would think that is different than the week is constant competition with other males.

 

[CarlC]

The locals are not stupid barbarian heathens incapable of logic or thought. This mentality is incorrect and outdated.

Burning to death a couple of people on a beach based on rumor and without a trial seems pretty barbaric to me.

Carl

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Burning to death a couple of people on a beach based on rumor and without a trial seems pretty barbaric to me.

Carl

Escaping the trap of being a third world nation is a trap that not many countries have figured. Poverty with no outs definitely has its down sides. However burning people to death though is not even close to excusable. If escaping poverty is going to be done IMO it is going to be done with proactive measure not by passive measures and contemporary conservation practices should contribute to sending third world nations in that direction.

 

[CarlC]

Conservation is a wonderful thing but it is not going to happen in Madagascar on the premise of saving Chameleons. It happens because of bigger well promoted species and in Madagascar's situation Lemurs are the key to getting lands conserved. Ardi knew this well and always talked very highly about how Dr. Patricia Wright led the fight to create Ranomafana.

At the end of the day the sad fact is Mining and Timber companies will offer more jobs then conservation. Mining and timber will feed more money to the government to get the lands they need.

The Malagasy people are not using the exotic woods for their homes and furniture. The Malagasy are not buying the jewelry the gem stones are used for.

Without a government that can balance the needs of its people and usage of its resource's Madagascar will continue to see a steady decline in its precious natural resources.

Carl

 

[DanSB]

Conservation is a wonderful thing but it is not going to happen in Madagascar on the premise of saving Chameleons. It happens because of bigger well promoted species and in Madagascar's situation Lemurs are the key to getting lands conserved. Ardi knew this well and always talked very highly about how Dr. Patricia Wright led the fight to create Ranomafana.

At the end of the day the sad fact is Mining and Timber companies will offer more jobs then conservation. Mining and timber will feed more money to the government to get the lands they need.

The Malagasy people are not using the exotic woods for their homes and furniture. The Malagasy are not buying the jewelry the gem stones are used for.

Without a government that can balance the needs of its people and usage of its resource's Madagascar will continue to see a steady decline in its precious natural resources.

Carl

Your right about it not being just chameleons. Turtles, frogs, geckos, birds, other lizards, that can be farmed for the pet trade, which will in turn help increase eco tourism. Then of course the other fauna and flora and general landscape. Timber also needs to be better regulated along with minerals. The pet trade is in my estimation a small part of species degradation. But it has the greatest potential to encourage international conservation support.

I'm not sure there is a lot that can really be done. When I drive up and down California, one of the most pro conservation places on earth and I can show you no less than 25 big pit mines in the Sacramento area, the rivers are still being dredged, and any pristine timber not tied down gets harvested. Granted this is all done without clear cutting or cyanide leeching but there is an impact contrary to what the local and state governments would have the people believe.

How on earth can we expect habitat that will line government pockets in Madagascar with mining and timber dollars? It will be extraordinarily difficult, and impossible without support from locals. How does one get support from locals? Make the habitat have value and teach sustainable techniques to sustain that value. Large mining and timber interests are notoriously cheap. Reptile importers and exporters take good portion of the money. If we want to secure a wild population we need to make it worthwhile for locals. If villages can farm and market their own wildlife along with running their own eco tourism and even sustainable timber and careful mining they could secure a better life for them and their grandchildren. The trick being they need to be shown how and given appropriate channels to do so.

This is the future of chameleon breeding if there is a future...

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Conservation is a wonderful thing but it is not going to happen in Madagascar on the premise of saving Chameleons. It happens because of bigger well promoted species and in Madagascar's situation Lemurs are the key to getting lands conserved. Ardi knew this well and always talked very highly about how Dr. Patricia Wright led the fight to create Ranomafana.

At the end of the day the sad fact is Mining and Timber companies will offer more jobs then conservation. Mining and timber will feed more money to the government to get the lands they need.

The Malagasy people are not using the exotic woods for their homes and furniture. The Malagasy are not buying the jewelry the gem stones are used for.

Without a government that can balance the needs of its people and usage of its resource's Madagascar will continue to see a steady decline in its precious natural resources.

Carl

I think that mind set is somewhat outdated. Madagascar being the worlds oldest island makes the Galapagos Islands look like a kids petting zoo when compared in terms of species evolution. With 90% of the wildlife being endemic to this island this island is a showcase of evolution. The Galapagos have got their finches, iguanas, and tortoises, Madagascar has got there Panther Chameleons, Parsons Chameleons, Uroplatus, Phelsuma, Lemurs and a list of many other species that have evolved in isolation on Madagascar the worlds oldest island. The prospects of this is the possibility of how many graduate study opportunities (internships, masters degrees, or PHDs studies) this islands forests could provide for the Malagasy and the rest of the world. Weather it is conserving the herptology, botany, entomology, mammalogy or ornithology that provides a resource for the world in advancement in knowledge that is a resource that should not be ignored or squandered.

Everyone is forgetting on this thread that Chamaeleo calyptratus has not required wild caught animals to keep captive populations going. Even though Lemurs are related to people chameleons are more popular now days than they were back during the CIN days. They have even got chameleons in Bud Light commercials.

 

[fluxlizard]

Everyone is forgetting on this thread that Chamaeleo calyptratus has not required wild caught animals to keep captive populations going.

Maybe maybe not. I've seen wild caught come in from time to time over the years and right now wild florida caught are very very commonly available.

I think they probably could go on forever at this point though even if florida caught and native caught were unavailable. But I also think that is because they are extraordinary- they are extremely adaptive and hardy and can eat a lot of vegetation, which means if something is missing from the insect part of the diet, they can find what they need elsewhere. Also being so hardy, if the problem has to do with genetic switches slowly getting messed up from incubation temps or something over generations, maybe they don't suffer the same problems as pardalis or some of the others.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Jeremy is on the right track here. I don't care what the locals currently think about chameleons, their focus is indeed on survival. If chameleons become a part of said survival they will be valued and conserved. The locals are not stupid barbarian heathens incapable of logic or thought. This mentality is incorrect and outdated.

If you want to save chameleons build them into the economy. If you want to disallow all exports and simply curate the natural habitat for posterity it will get strip farmed and hunted out. This is reality. Conservation in poor countries must have an economic upside to be successful.

As far as breeding multiple generations F5 plus we as a group need to decide to breed for survival traits as well as heavily cull and or not breed any less than perfect specimens. This along with limited wild stock could allow for long term success.

I also think the entire system is flawed. I would like to see importation regulated more thoroughly. There is NO reason any wild caught animal should go to an inexperienced person or one who isn't planning to breed.

If a breeders license / permit was required to purchase wild caught and a better quality was demanded for import this would do several things: wild caught value would increase, increasing the quality and capture techniques because fewer healthy quality animals would be exported.

Those who have a permit would be able to demand a premium price and make the endeavor more worthwhile.

At present the export rewards quantities of any garbage animal rather than well cared for healthy animals.

I am going to take issue with much of your post, and similar posts, in this thread. To begin with, the chameleon populations in the wilds of Madagascar are not under threat. Since the quota system went into effect, even with some excesses, most species are doing quite well. CITES recently approved for Madagascar to add several chameleon species to be available for limited export.

The second issue is all these notions about improving the quality of export/ import, and some idea of a $500 license. Just to import CITES critters, one must maintain a $100 per year license from USF&W, and then a similar $100 per year in-state license, at least in Florida. For any shipment brought in from such as Madagascar, I am going to pay USF&W a minimum of $270 additional just to inspect it, hundreds of dollars in other paperwork fees, varying based on what countries I go through (no direct flights to America from Madagascar), as well as various broker's fees in those cities/countries it transits, as well as the air freight.

I am going to have over $1000 into any shipment before I pay for a single animal. That puts a strong motivation on me to do all that I can to not get animals that are on death's doorstep on arrival.

Currently, the problem is not with importers wanting, and paying for, quality. Its still with exporters who have other customers waiting for the panthers if you should drop them. I've had exporters send garbage because they didn't care if I ordered from them the following season, as they had folks in Asia willing to buy their junk. I have exporters now with whom I have bonus arrangements, where I not only pay the asking price, but if they send me animals that I deem exceptional, I then send them a $25 per head bonus after arrival.

Quality is all about maintaining a competitive marketplace at every level, and then being able to build an exporter/importer relationship within that framework. The more such is restricted to a smaller number of players, the worse it will get, not better.

As to who gets the imports ? Supply and demand needs to rule. Incompetent folks who get into the market will be Darwin'd out. The profit margin on flipping WC's is quite small, btw.

As for F-generations, one only needs access to new bloodlines. In-breeding 2nd cousins or closer will doom a bloodline with chameleons. I have bloodlines here that reach back 12 years, but whether it be via CB, or WC, one still needs access to a large gene pool to sustain any chameleon species.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Selection is the key. Even with a very small gene pool, a viable population is certainly possible - provided adequate selective forces.

Nature can select a healthy breeding population out of one single clutch. Replicating that in captivity is not possible unless you ignore the most selective factor: the market.

It was my hobby, and I wasn't going to eliminate the majority of my animals from the gene pool! Most high-volume breeders HAVE to at least break even, else they cannot sustain their operation. While they will hold back better, stronger animals, that isn't exactly what nature would do. I selected for size, color, etc. Nature might pick something else - a viability not apparent to anyone except over generations.

Natural vs artificial selection vs viability of captive populations over generations. This is interesting stuff. I can't wait to get back into the hobby.

I miss this stuff

 

[Chameleon Company]

Selection is the key. Even with a very small gene pool, a viable population is certainly possible - provided adequate selective forces.

Nature can select a healthy breeding population out of one single clutch. Replicating that in captivity is not possible unless you ignore the most selective factor: the market.

It was my hobby, and I wasn't going to eliminate the majority of my animals from the gene pool! Most high-volume breeders HAVE to at least break even, else they cannot sustain their operation. While they will hold back better, stronger animals, that isn't exactly what nature would do. I selected for size, color, etc. Nature might pick something else - a viability not apparent to anyone except over generations.

Natural vs artificial selection vs viability of captive populations over generations. This is interesting stuff. I can't wait to get back into the hobby.

I miss this stuff

Eric. Hope all is well. But I find your post either misunderstood by me, or grossly flawed. So help me out.

First off:

"Nature can select a healthy breeding population out of one single clutch."

That is absurd. Without genetic diversity, i.e. DNA from other unrelated offspring, that clutch will amount to nothing in future generations.

And then this:

"While they will hold back better, stronger animals, that isn't exactly what nature would do."

What ? That is exactly what nature does ! Natural selection ! Survival of the fittest ! Doesn't matter squat what I hold back. If I don't have genetic diversity first, my "better, stronger animals" are going to crash and burn with the next generation.

Genetic diversity rules folks. If you do not have that as your foundation, by whatever means regardless, your bloodlines will collapse.

 

[nick barta]

I am going to take issue with much of your post, and similar posts, in this thread. To begin with, the chameleon populations in the wilds of Madagascar are not under threat. Since the quota system went into effect, even with some excesses, most species are doing quite well. CITES recently approved for Madagascar to add several chameleon species to be available for limited export.

The second issue is all these notions about improving the quality of export/ import, and some idea of a $500 license. Just to import CITES critters, one must maintain a $100 per year license from USF&W, and then a similar $100 per year in-state license, at least in Florida. For any shipment brought in from such as Madagascar, I am going to pay USF&W a minimum of $270 additional just to inspect it, hundreds of dollars in other paperwork fees, varying based on what countries I go through (no direct flights to America from Madagascar), as well as various broker's fees in those cities/countries it transits, as well as the air freight.

I am going to have over $1000 into any shipment before I pay for a single animal. That puts a strong motivation on me to do all that I can to not get animals that are on death's doorstep on arrival.

Currently, the problem is not with importers wanting, and paying for, quality. Its still with exporters who have other customers waiting for the panthers if you should drop them. I've had exporters send garbage because they didn't care if I ordered from them the following season, as they had folks in Asia willing to buy their junk. I have exporters now with whom I have bonus arrangements, where I not only pay the asking price, but if they send me animals that I deem exceptional, I then send them a $25 per head bonus after arrival.

Quality is all about maintaining a competitive marketplace at every level, and then being able to build an exporter/importer relationship within that framework. The more such is restricted to a smaller number of players, the worse it will get, not better.

As to who gets the imports ? Supply and demand needs to rule. Incompetent folks who get into the market will be Darwin'd out. The profit margin on flipping WC's is quite small, btw.

As for F-generations, one only needs access to new bloodlines. In-breeding 2nd cousins or closer will doom a bloodline with chameleons. I have bloodlines here that reach back 12 years, but whether it be via CB, or WC, one still needs access to a large gene pool to sustain any chameleon species.

Jim,

Thanks for giving us a clearer picture of how the import business works. As always, I enjoy hearing your perspectives.

A question for you: Quads have not generally been unavailable for quite some time in the US. If new blood is not introduced to the current US small population (Lets say it is 100 for this question) do you think the existing breeding population will fail?

Nick

 

[rsepiphyte]

This post takes me "back in time". I also knew and respected Ardi and sent her two of my Parsons Chameleons years ago. Ken i knew also and respected his work with Mellers. I have lost touch with both over the years but i hope they are doing well. Interesting theory that Ardi has in regards to breeding chameleons but not one that is new to me. Curious to see what others think.
Slainte' Ruth