Hobbyists have come a long way in the last 15 years, and information via the web surly has been a major impact. Seeco's success, at accomplishing multi generations, may become a norm for others.
Nick
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The future of Chameleon Breeding
- Thread starter nick barta
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Hobbyists have come a long way in the last 15 years, and information via the web surly has been a major impact. Seeco's success, at accomplishing multi generations, may become a norm for others.
Nick
Yes I knew the entrance of his baby would change everything.but that is wonderful for him. Do you know how far he got when breeding?
Chameleons or ....
Nick
You bring up great challenging thoughts, I do think Ardi was not introducing fresh blood, as her goal was to create a reduced need for wild caught Chameleons, not a steady need for them.
I think it is possible that breeders then and now breed back into related lines, and this practice may be more widespread than we all believe.
Tara, you have wisdom beyond your years...
Nick
Carl,
Do you think Lateralis are chameleons that will be more prone to multi-generational breeding, and if so why?
Nick
Great points. I do not know her protocol, I too had one of her Nose Be males, and he was F3 or F4. Her reference was to Paradalis, but I do not know the local.
I don't think there is any question today that F3 is attainable in Panthers, Lateralis, most Montane species, and Pygmies (I am sure I missed some).
It is bittersweet to think of species becoming unavailable in the hobby, but I agree that unless the habitat can support a species, we will loose access to these little dinosaurs.
Nick
Blueberry2223
New Member
I do not know which generation I have but, my female had a clutch and the runt has shown the most strength so far so we have decided that we are going to keep it because I have fell in love but there are ours that show a lot of strength. I am just hoping that they never go extinct they are to amazing.
pssh
Avid Member
Ha! There we go! I knew there was something I was leaving out. You know what they say about assuming I guess we would need to know exactly how she did it to compare it now. And your right, the various other advances in the hobby very well could be the reason why most people arent reporting the same issues. I do remember talking with a breeder (2-3 years ago) who was telling me that in his experience the further from wild caughts the offspring were, there was a bigger difference in the babies. He particularly mentioned F5 babies. He said he wasnt seeing a failure to thrive but just that they were not quite as robust as F1 babies. He also said he wasnt seeing quite the same thing with F5 crosses.
I guess we would need to know exactly how she did it to compare it now. And your right, the various other advances in the hobby very well could be the reason why most people arent reporting the same issues. I do remember talking with a breeder (2-3 years ago) who was telling me that in his experience the further from wild caughts the offspring were, there was a bigger difference in the babies. He particularly mentioned F5 babies. He said he wasnt seeing a failure to thrive but just that they were not quite as robust as F1 babies. He also said he wasnt seeing quite the same thing with F5 crosses.
Ha! There we go! I knew there was something I was leaving out. You know what they say about assuming
This is surely a hobby that learning and trying new things needs to be our habit, and not our fear.
Nick
CarlC
Established Member
Carl,
Do you think Lateralis are chameleons that will be more prone to multi-generational breeding, and if so why?
Nick
Yes for the simple fact the majority of people who keep chameleons notice the flashy colors that Pardalis, Calyptratus and Lateralis have. These three species have the easiest requirements to meet in captivity. The mass's aren't going to buy something that takes all their time to care for.
Carl
CarlC
Established Member
CarlC
Established Member
Jeremey I don't want to burst your bubble but Chamaleons play almost a zero role when it comes to conservation. I can only speak about Madagascar because I have been there. People there could care less if the chameleons disappear. Once you get back into the smaller villages people have one thought on their mind at the beginning of the day and it is how they are going to feed themselves and their families. We think with a first world mind set. They think about survival.
I do hope you get to visit there as it will open your eye's to the reality of life there.
Carl
Lathelia
Established Member
I would label them: F3 X F5 =F5, since F3 would make F4 babies and F5 makes F6 babies, then you should add F4 an F6 and divide by two which gives F5.
Is there a "standard" how breeders should label the babies or does anyone just count it however they want?
Correction and Next Steps
Did some research. I must correct my statement. F2 = F1 + F1. Therefore I will get F4 from my F3 and F5 pairing.
This discussion brings up some very important questions for those of us working multi-generational projects. What gets passed from generation to generation? If we do have a weakening in successive captive generations then identifying the deficiency that is passed through the reproductive cycle and continues to grow through the generations is critical. This is a concern for me/us. Just because we, in this painful small group who can discuss multi-generational matters, have not reproduced what Ardi saw does not mean we have beaten it. She is just one data point, but our success data points are not overwhelming. Until we know what it is that degrades through the generations we are in danger of seeing it again.
My bringing up possible reasons why things could be different now compared to when Ardi was doing it was only to show that there are differences that could account for the results as presented. But it would be foolish of us to decide, because there are possibilities, that we can blissfully ignore what a very competent breeder observed. Her efforts are wasted if we do not build on them and use them to further the general body of knowledge.
It appears to me that the start of this research is to gather what we know to be passed from generation to generation that we are able to affect by nutrition or environment. I'll break open the texts (and do a forum search, of course). But if anyone on here has information on this or links, please share and we can all do some collaborative research.
Did some research. I must correct my statement. F2 = F1 + F1. Therefore I will get F4 from my F3 and F5 pairing.
This discussion brings up some very important questions for those of us working multi-generational projects. What gets passed from generation to generation? If we do have a weakening in successive captive generations then identifying the deficiency that is passed through the reproductive cycle and continues to grow through the generations is critical. This is a concern for me/us. Just because we, in this painful small group who can discuss multi-generational matters, have not reproduced what Ardi saw does not mean we have beaten it. She is just one data point, but our success data points are not overwhelming. Until we know what it is that degrades through the generations we are in danger of seeing it again.
My bringing up possible reasons why things could be different now compared to when Ardi was doing it was only to show that there are differences that could account for the results as presented. But it would be foolish of us to decide, because there are possibilities, that we can blissfully ignore what a very competent breeder observed. Her efforts are wasted if we do not build on them and use them to further the general body of knowledge.
It appears to me that the start of this research is to gather what we know to be passed from generation to generation that we are able to affect by nutrition or environment. I'll break open the texts (and do a forum search, of course). But if anyone on here has information on this or links, please share and we can all do some collaborative research.
Whoa. Now my brain is hurting. I think we need some official scientific community representation on this one!
fluxlizard
Avid Member
I like that!
You need to put that as your signiture
CarlC
Established Member
Bill I think this is along the lines of what you are talking about.
Here is a question. What if any culling is being done on these multi generational breedings- runts, slow growers, deformities in appearance and color. What factors are used to decide if that "oddball" is used for breeding?
Carl
Here is a question. What if any culling is being done on these multi generational breedings- runts, slow growers, deformities in appearance and color. What factors are used to decide if that "oddball" is used for breeding?
Carl
Sadly Carl, I think you are correct, the rural local population is in survival mode, and anything they can do to make it another day is the step they will take. Chameleons may be more protected in Madagascar by the native peoples fear in some regions of this strange creature, rather than the people being concerned about the survival of the chameleons, forests, etc.
Motherload has stated what we would all like to see, but there are many economic, political, and ethical roadblocks that stop progress in third world countries.
Nick
I like that!
You need to put that as your signiture
I authorize you by the power of Chameleondom to use it yourself!
Nick
This may be the center of the difficulties in analyzing multigenerational success and failure. Each keeper will have differing methods of raising the groups, culling methods, and record keeping.
Now my mind is hurting...
Nick
