This makes me so sad/angry

[yoza717]

I will have to agree with Jojackson on this one.....
From the looks of the second picture, the owner did care enough to have a nice set up (for a frog). I think ignorance was a big factor in his husbandry, in assuming the same enviorment will work for a chameleon.
Not everyone is lucky enough to have found a site like this. He and unfortunately many others get the wrong information, even though they had good intentions.
At least the chameleon wasn't kept in a shoe box.

 

[Dunnigan]

Lets paint a picture...

Not everyone knows about this site and the guy could have been at a pet store that knows a LOT about reptiles in general (I can think of one myself), but NOTHING about chameleons. You have purchased other reptiles from that store before and everything has worked out well. Now you see this amazing creature, a chameleon. The guys who have given you good info in the past tell you all about how to care for your soon to be chameleon. You buy all the stuff and take him home, and do everything they have told you and you feel like a good parent to this animal. A month later you find your dear pet not doing so well and realize you need to re-home it, but cannot afford to give it away...

I think this is a very good possibility of what happened here.

 

[AJA]

So did anyone contact this person and suggest looking at this forum or other website to help out this chameleon (he looks thin in that photo) or ask why he is selling it or point out that his set up is bit expensive compared to what you can get from someone else?


Bottom line, is it the chameleons fault he is where he is?

 

[Pure]

JJ, I'm bout fed up with you.

I gave you my reasons for "assuming" that this cham was in bad shape. The reasons where based on my skills of observation. If my diagnosis of this cham is wrong then tell me what was wrong. Stop trying to be my forum mother. I'm a grown man and don't need you to tell me what I should think/post. Instead why not try to educate me on what was wrong with what I explained to you what I thought is wrong with that cham.

Last night I was very tired and not sleeping so yes my posts where not the most informative. Like I said already I have my reasons for thinking the cham isn't healthy. I'm sorry I should have been clearer as to what I was saying. I think most of this could have been avoided if I had just said what I saw first.

The reasons for the water being brown are based on fact of what I know about water. I'm pretty much an expert on fish tanks and the water in them. Tannic acid is released by wood into water. But the wood needs to be submerged for some time for it to have that much effect on the water. There isn't enough water in that tank to submerge anything.

Gravel that needs to be cleaned better doesn't turn the water brown, unless it's brown gravel. It usually turns the water cloudy with maybe a hint of color from the gravel. Be it blue, green or whatever color. That gravel is red. Not brown. So pretty much all causes of that water's discoloration has been thought of.

Fecal matter would be next to impossible to completely remove from the gravel unless you took most of the gravel under it out also. So in this case the proper assumption is that the water is brown due to the fecal matter left in the tank.

So if in the end you think my assumptions are wrong. Tell me what is scientifically wrong about them. If you can't then you need to keep your opinions about me to yourself.

Keep pointing that finger and one of these day someone is going to snap it off.

 

[ChamNovice]

The reasons for the water being brown are based on fact of what I know about water. I'm pretty much an expert on fish tanks and the water in them.

Gravel that needs to be cleaned better doesn't turn the water brown, unless it's brown gravel. It usually turns the water cloudy with maybe a hint of color from the gravel. Be it blue, green or whatever color. That gravel is red. Not brown. So pretty much all causes of that water's discoloration has been thought of.

Not completely true..... If you buy pea gravel, which IMO is what it looks like in the pic, in bulk from a home depot, lowes or another place like that, not the pretty colored gravel from the pet store,that's the expensive way to do it and ridiculous to pay that much for rock IMO. It is dirty, covered in dirt.... Hose inside the bag it comes in and you almost get mud.

"Pet store" rock has been cleaned and dyed (if it's colored), that's why it "colors" the water, bulk rock will turn it brown from being dirty, that's also the reason "pet store" rock is 4 times as expensive, it has been washed....(more labor, more expensive). I also have had aquarium for many years, salt and fresh. I will never call myself an "expert" on anything, you can always learn new things. To me you become an "expert" when you have stopped learning and feel you know everything there is to know about a certain subject. I would list a couple examples, but to prevent possibly offending anyone I will refrain, since they don't pertain to this example of expert.

I am not trying to pick fights or sides, just giving a possible reason his water could be brown. You may be 100% correct, but you may also be 100% wrong. Unless you watched him personally not clean his setup you cannot be an expert on his water conditions, it just isn't possible. Yes you can make assumptions and come to conclusions from what you "think" might be going on, which sometimes leads to being correct. Other times "you know what happens when you assume"... You might have heard the rest of that phrase before.

If no one has contacted this person, I would be willing to do so, and direct him here. Not necessarily to this thread, who wants to hear how wrong you are in a negative manner when you first look at a forum that is potentially trying to help you, and your animal.

 

[blackbetty]

I agree, Someone email him and point him HERE. Maybe if he learns the PROPER way to house it, he might want to keep it or might find the right owner on this forum. Stop making it personal.

 

[veiledchameleonyoshi]

I sent the person an email and gave them the link to Brad's site.

I never meant to start such a heated debate in this thread. All I was trying to point out was how I felt bad for the chameleon and that the owner should have done more research.

 

[blackbetty]

I sent the person an email and gave them the link to Brad's site.

I never meant to start such a heated debate in this thread. All I was trying to point out was how I felt bad for the chameleon and that the owner should have done more research.

No worries. I dont think YOU started it You had great intentions and glad you invited them to join us. Maybe if they see how fun and exciting owning one will be and get the proper setup, they will want to keep it and enhance its life!

 

[veiledchameleonyoshi]

No worries. I dont think YOU started it You had great intentions and glad you invited them to join us. Maybe if they see how fun and exciting owning one will be and get the proper setup, they will want to keep it and enhance its life!

That's what I'm hoping too.

 

[jojackson]

Yes indeed, lets hope the person gets in touch.

Last night I was very tired and not sleeping so yes my posts where not the most informative.

And here we are many hours later, you have had a sleep and should be well rested, yet you are still ranting? Your testosterone levels must be soaring!
I had hoped you had done something useful with your impotent neanderthal rage, like clubbed your keyboard to death!
Then you'd be forced to take a break and you could spend the time on another visit to your therapist. Tell her the meds are not working anymore!

"Goos- fra-ba!"

If my diagnosis of this cham is wrong then tell me what was wrong.
educate me on what was wrong with what I explained to you what I thought is wrong with that cham.

Whats wrong is that its based entirely and 'purely' (isnt that apt) on nothing more than speculation and opinion you came up with after looking at two blurry images. All other observers
made no judgement about the health of the animal or the intentions of the seller.
The only fact agreed apon unanimously is that the tank is simply inappropriate.
Speculation is just that, its not fact, its not even probability.
Having an opinion dosent make you correct either.
Frankly I dont care what you think you know. This is not about your opinions as far as Im concerned, rather its about a concept that appears to be quite alien to you, here its referred to as 'A fair go'.
Having a go at, slandering and making wild assumptions about somebody without even giving them the opportunity to reply is not 'A fair go'. Its gutless!

 

[NewOwner]

Yes indeed, lets hope the person gets in touch.



And here we are many hours later, you have had a sleep and should be well rested, yet you are still ranting? Your testosterone levels must be soaring!
I had hoped you had done something useful with your impotent neanderthal rage, like clubbed your keyboard to death!
Then you'd be forced to take a break and you could spend the time on another visit to your therapist. Tell her the meds are not working anymore!

"Goos- fra-ba!"

LOL!!!! Goos-Fra-Ba Adam sandler is great.. Anger maagement

 

[Pure]

I am not trying to pick fights or sides, just giving a possible reason his water could be brown. You may be 100% correct, but you may also be 100% wrong. Unless you watched him personally not clean his setup you cannot be an expert on his water conditions, it just isn't possible. Yes you can make assumptions and come to conclusions from what you "think" might be going on, which sometimes leads to being correct. Other times "you know what happens when you assume"... You might have heard the rest of that phrase before.

LOL I don't pick fights. Just don't call me an ahole. lol We are all here to learn. Unfortunately some people just can't keep it that way.

Yes I admit I could be wrong I was just stating the scientific fact behind my ASSumtions. I was just trying to point out to JJ that I didn't just post to post. I have a reason for what I think is going on.

I don't know where you get river rock from but in the 2 or 3 thousand pounds of it I've used in my tanks..It has never turned my water brown. Cloudy, yes Brown, no. This is irrelevant as this guy is not using river rock thus I didn't bring it up. Not picking fights but if your river rock turns your water brown you might wanna find a new source. Just trying to help. lol

JJ..I'm done with this. Since you can't offer any scientific reasons as to why I'm wrong you resort to taking more jabs at me. Next time I suggest you read a book.

Thank god for the ignore feature. From here on I'd just rather not see you, so gooday mate.

 

[jojackson]

Any scientist will tell you that speculation and opinion alone is not science.
There is simply no data hence nothing scientific to explain.
You conveniently ignore the entire point. I think it just made you feel good make that guy look deliberately neglectful.
Hopefully the person comes here, is mature enough to ignore this thread and in turn
decides to keep the animal but seek help with his setup and the outcome is positive.

 

[blackbetty]

LOL I don't pick fights. Just don't call me an ahole. lol We are all here to learn. Unfortunately some people just can't keep it that way.

Yes I admit I could be wrong I was just stating the scientific fact behind my ASSumtions. I was just trying to point out to JJ that I didn't just post to post. I have a reason for what I think is going on.

I don't know where you get river rock from but in the 2 or 3 thousand pounds of it I've used in my tanks..It has never turned my water brown. Cloudy, yes Brown, no. This is irrelevant as this guy is not using river rock thus I didn't bring it up. Not picking fights but if your river rock turns your water brown you might wanna find a new source. Just trying to help. lol

JJ..I'm done with this. Since you can't offer any scientific reasons as to why I'm wrong you resort to taking more jabs at me. Next time I suggest you read a book.

Thank god for the ignore feature. From here on I'd just rather not see you, so gooday mate.

Welcome to my world.

 

[dante8858]

I think it is completely ignorant for a person to keep an animal in those conditions. All they would have to do to find out how to properly take care of him is to do a little research on the computer or buy a book. People need to research before they buy an animal and take on the responsibility. That's my opinion...

Especially now with the internet and great forums like these there is no excuse! When I had my veiled years ago there wasn’t all this great info. And last year when I rescued the Mellers after seeing his living conditions and feeling really bad for him I did research and I found this forum!

 

[Syn]

Especially now with the internet and great forums like these there is no excuse! When I had my veiled years ago there wasn’t all this great info. And last year when I rescued the Mellers after seeing his living conditions and feeling really bad for him I did research and I found this forum!

There is an excuse. Up until about a year ago, I had no internet. Some people just don't live in the area for internet - I am paying 80$+ a month for internet, compared to someone who lives closer to the "business" area of the city who would pay something like 20$ a month for what I am using. Granted, yes, I can take the internet wherever I want to with my Sprint internet card, but some people just can't afford it! So there is an excuse, for some.

 

[blackbetty]

There is an excuse. Up until about a year ago, I had no internet. Some people just don't live in the area for internet - I am paying 80$+ a month for internet, compared to someone who lives closer to the "business" area of the city who would pay something like 20$ a month for what I am using. Granted, yes, I can take the internet wherever I want to with my Sprint internet card, but some people just can't afford it! So there is an excuse, for some.

Some people may not have internet, but there are libraries with..BOOKS? and Most of them DO have computers these days.. If someone truly wants to know and do it right, they should make the effort to learn first.

 

[yoza717]

It boggles my mind on how some people can get so rightous about other people's husbandry, yet they can't seem to keep their own pets healthy.

 

[blackbetty]

It boggles my mind on how some people can get so rightous about other people's husbandry, yet they can't seem to keep their own pets healthy.

I am not going to take that personally as I fully admitted that I started to question my ability to keep the environment as stable as it should be.. hence why I rehomed the Jackson's because I didn't feel confident enough to care for them the way they needed after a bad run of luck with the Panther.. I try not to take anything personally, but I know that I have been judged on this site and badly.. I know nothing of the other peoples environments on this post so I cannot say anything about them... I just hope everyone does truly try their hardest and do the best they can.

 

[Syn]

Some people may not have internet, but there are libraries with..BOOKS? and Most of them DO have computers these days.. If someone truly wants to know and do it right, they should make the effort to learn first.

Believe it or not the library closest to me does not have a single book about chameleons, does not have internet unless you are willing to pay extra PER MONTH to use it, and most of the time they're used up. (Of course they call this a donation, and if you don't pay it you find yourself being kicked off 5 minutes OR LESS after using the computer).

In smaller cities, it's harder to find ways to get information.