Too much, Too late

[chams1]

I'm sorry about your loss(es). I wanted to chime in - but first my apologies for not reading the entire thread so sorry if this is repeat info.

I have a Meller's cham that has had the same issue. Did several tests (because there were no obvious things such as parasites, etc.) and, long story short, the blood tests showed there was a Vitamin A deficiency that was causing the bulging eyes. This deficiency could also have lead to the aparent respiratory issues (wheezing). We supplemented with liquid Vitamin A, but you have to get the proper dosage from a qualified vet because too much can kill them. Not to say this was the problem here, but just thought I'd add it as a possibility.

Please don't beat yourself up about it. It always bites when these things happen, and it's even worse when you get a sucky pet store involved that doesn't know what it's doing and sells unhealthy animals. I learned that same lesson a few years ago. Stick with it and don't let that get you down. Turn to breeders who know what they are doing and you will have much better and long-lasting success with your cham.

 

[Jakedn]

Heres a list of toxic woods.

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-allergies-and-toxicity/

 

[Pure]

I personally thought there was no way you could kill a chameleon in 30 hours unless you took a hammer to it.

Thanks for that visual now I won't be able to get it out of my head lol.

Sorry for your losses. I'm with everyone else on this. It was nothing you did. Neither of those animals where healthy to begin with. Even if the first on was "living" fine he was definitely not thriving and probably wouldn't have made it long term in the wild.

As for the pet shop lady, you need to do your homework on the care and husbandry needs of Chams. IME if you go in there and sound like you know exactly what you are talking about, they usually can't argue with you.

This lady is just looking for a reason to keep you money. Her argument that wood is better than glass is kinda like the pot and the kettle scenario. Both are equally bad for Chams with wood being slightly worse due to it's ability to soak up moisture.

In the end you may need to file a report. I know the governmental bodies (can't remember what they are called) in the UK are much more strict on pet shops compared to here in the US. I've heard of shops being shut down for keeping animals in poor conditions. Your Better Business Burro (equivalent) also is more active in taking action against companies who practice less than honest tactics than here in the US.

 

[kimmun]

the problem s that she has a very good reputation. even the vet was shocked when i phone her with his one. She takes part in rescue reptiles and stuff but to me it jsut doesnt add up. she didnt even realise that she has 2 male chameleons in the same viv. im going to see if i can get some more vets on side than just the one. It not about the money at all now its about the poor animals she keeps. My husband said when we were in there that some of the glass on a few of the vivs were cracked and stuff. I dont get how she has a good reputation and is allowed to 'care' for these animals

 

[kimmun]

this is my reply from the vet-

Hello Kim,
It is very frustrating with these cases. Without doing a post mortem you can`t say if it had a respiratory disease or not but be careful not to overinterpret the end stage signs you were seeing of increased respiration. I don`t know if the chameleon had previous respiratory infection but there is always a potential for all reptiles to have underlying disease that can flare up in a period of stress. However all you can do is to make sure you get any new animals from reputable sources and spend some time observing the animal in the shop before you buy it (espcially things like respiratory rate and effort, discharge, eye movement, mobility etc). Speak to the shop owners and you will get an impression about their knowledge which will reflect on how well the animals have been looked after.

Good luck with any future reptiles,

Heidi

 

[Pure]

If it was respiratory, wouldn't there have been some sign of wheezing prior to the end game wheeze?

 

[kimmun]

well we got him home on the saturday night and i was at work 11.30 -7 on sunaday and monday so i wasnt there much to notice it but my husbad did tell me he had heard the same noise i heard a few times. Ive given up the battle of even trying to get my money back or trying to prove a point to them. The lady in the shop even managed to convince my own mum that shes perfectly innocent. she has all this stuff beside her name and i have 3 dead chameleons beside mine. No point any more im giving up on chams now. Just dont hitnk they are for me.

Thanks guys for all your help and seen as this is a chameleon forum and i dont have one any more i guess this is good bye

Kim xx

 

[jojackson]

he was healthy just small before the vet told us to force feed him this critical care stuff which he hated. I think it was just to much stress because even this morning he was ok but after i gave him the stuff he just sat gawping at me angry, then about an hour later he was gone.

You should never have attempted force feeding without a clue. My guess would be you got the stuff in its lungs, Im not surprised it was wheezing. Bad advice/lack of research killed it!
You found this forum of keepers, most of whom know what they are doing, and you can elimenate that vet, so if you tried again
you cant make the same mistakes. If you go into something on a whim, without research on your part then your just as much to blame. Why did you leave it so long before you decided there might be a forum. Petshops suck, but its six of one, half dozen of the other IMO.
Best wishes

 

[Pure]

As JJ so eloquently put it, you have a forum now that is filled with tons of useful information. Self research and questions asked when needed should be all you need. That is as long as you listen to the advice given. Start off with the advice on getting an animal from a better source. Finding a breeder in Ireland should be something that can be accomplished.

 

[kimmun]

thanks for your opinion jj, how ever if you go back and read again you will see the one that i was giving the critical care formula was not the one who wheezing. As for me gettign stuff into his lungs i doubt it. I did not force him to open his mouth the force feeding went as far as me putting drips on his lips for him to lick off when he opened his mouth ( yes this took a long time but refused to do it any other way as i did not know what i was doing)
Please if your going to shoot me down with your opinion at least read whats goign on first. The reason i took so long to get help for him was because i always thought he was healthy as he was eating drinking basking, doing what he pleased, i was always advised to stay away from forums as they are only oppinions and some of them bad ones that can be fatel ( not refering to this forum in paticular) but i was just curios as to his size. Yes i do accept part responsibilty for gonzo but not for the second one.
Any way its definatly been there done that not doing it again with chams for me

 

[jojackson]

My mistake then, I apologise. Still the same applies, It didnt have to be a forum, you could have sourced books, emailed/spoken to breeders etc.
Too many folk think anything smaller than a dog or cat must be easy to keep, how hard can it be, and if it dies, well its just a lizard, Ill buy another one (still without a clue)and maybe ill have better 'luck'.
The first time somebody calls you a horses ass, you ignore it,
the second time, you turn the other cheek.
But the third time, maybe its time to go shopping for a saddle!

Atleast your descision to avoid chameleons is sound. Start with something simpler, like a bearded dragon, learn something about reptiles, then think about a chameleon After you do some homework.
And Never, ever buy any reptile from a petshop, anywhere.

Dont be down on yourself, you were honest enough to accept liability (for one anyway), you've learnt something (sadly the hard way). Dont be put off reptiles as pets though,
just realise they are vastly different to any non-reptile pet and require skills that must be learned, and reasonable preparation.

It dosent matter what kind it is, pets are for life and rely on you more than a child.
Best wishes in the future

 

[Lyneeso]

jeesh

your mean JJ. Anyone that has followed Kimmun's posts should understand that this was not her fault. She never claimed to be an expert although seems to have demonstrated reasonably advanced husbandry skills. I'm just saying that Kimmun obviously isn't the idiot that you are so faintly making her out to be behind your "appologies".

Sorry, but you are just more harsh than I could ever be, she's oviously torn up and seems to be taking it pretty bad already. You've got such a nack at being so disingenuous.

 

[Lyneeso]

...

Kimmun, you should re-evaluate then try again! There is 'bad advice' here and there but the great thing about this forum is that each and every posting is scrutinized by litterall "experts" nearly immediately in most cases. Bad advice or incorrect information is generally "routed" instantaneously by numerous people with years of experience who are in AGREEMENT! That is why this forum is such a valuble resource.
Once again, sorry for your losses & best wishes,
Lyneeso

 

[jojackson]

He/She is not an idiot, lyneeso neither did I imply such, and neither do I make any apologies.
I didnt say it was 'all his/her fault' , But that it was equally the fault of both parties,
Just as much Kimmun's because He/she bought a chameleon/s without learning anything about them beforehand. Its as simple as that, He/She is certainly far from the first to do so, and Sadly, certainly wont be the last.

Research applies to any animal you choose to take responsibility for be it reptile or otherwise.
Dont let your emotions cloud your sensibility or the truth.
Ive never 'kissed ass' here, nor ever will I. Dont, however conclude that I have no compassion, lest you judge me, just as you beleive I judge Kimmun.

The thread is done, and continued Harping about it either way, wont make Kimmun feel better!

 

[Lyneeso]

He/She is not an idiot, lyneeso neither did I imply such, and neither do I make any apologies.
I didnt say it was 'all his/her fault' , But that it was equally the fault of both parties,
Just as much Kimmun's because He/she bought a chameleon/s without learning anything about them beforehand. Its as simple as that, He/She is certainly far from the first to do so, and Sadly, certainly wont be the last.

Research applies to any animal you choose to take responsibility for be it reptile or otherwise.
Dont let your emotions cloud your sensibility or the truth.
Ive never 'kissed ass' here, nor ever will I. Dont, however conclude that I have no compassion, lest you judge me, just as you beleive I judge Kimmun.

The thread is done, and continued Harping about it either way, wont make Kimmun feel better!

k jo, whatever you say.

 

[kimmun]

i did buy the cham with out learning ' much' on them first. i knew the basics , eg humidity crickets temp, Which i didnt realise it was much more to it than that but quickly learned threw my mistake. I also keep 2 leopard geckos and 2 Phelsuma dubia, Which i have to admit i wud put at the same care level as chameleons , which is why i thought i would be ok with the cham. Every one makes mistakes and every one learns from them. I think breeders and pet shops should introduce a policy - If u can write a decent care sheet on the animal then you can buy it.

 

[kimmun]

Kimmun, you should re-evaluate then try again! There is 'bad advice' here and there but the great thing about this forum is that each and every posting is scrutinized by litterall "experts" nearly immediately in most cases. Bad advice or incorrect information is generally "routed" instantaneously by numerous people with years of experience who are in AGREEMENT! That is why this forum is such a valuble resource.
Once again, sorry for your losses & best wishes,
Lyneeso

and thanks for sticking up for me.

 

[jojackson]

I think breeders and pet shops should introduce a policy - If u can write a decent care sheet on the animal then you can buy it.

We were recently discussing petstores policys here

https://www.chameleonforums.com/petsmart-veiled-25206-new/

Sadly, I dont think a petstore would want to turn away any buisness.