Took my Chameleon to the vet today.

[LilBlue]

Hello everyone. So I took my panther chameleon to the vet today, suspect a vitamin deficiency. I have been having issues with him for a couple months, where he would close one eye or the other, or both, for only a day or two at time. Then be normal for a week, then back to eyes being shut. At first it seemed like the light may be bothering him, so I rearranged them. Did more direct misting, even though he hates it. He seemed to be getting better, and then at Christmas time he stopped eating. It was difficult to arrange a vet visit at that time(money), and I knew he wasn't critical, so I waited.

The vet seemed knowledgeable enough...I drilled the receptionist as to how many reptiles they see, specifically Chameleons. They do advertise as an exotic all animal clinic. So felt confident enough. Also, it's only a couple minutes from my house. Short trip for my cold blooded friend.

She took him out, squeezed his belly everywhere, couldn't feel an impaction. I explained everything to her why I believe he has a vitamin deficiency. His eye lids started to change shape, and one eye lid seems like it sticks out further then his eye ball, tented, if that makes sense. She kept saying she didn't understand what I was trying to explain about the eyes, and yes his eyes are clear, but you can't really see the odd shape unless his eyes are very open. I would have thought that she would know that those are signs of a vitamin issue. Anyways, I got what I wanted out the visit. They drew blood and will do a full panel to check for vitamins, illnesses etc. They gave him fluids by injection into his stomach area(which I didn't think was needed, he drinks and is hydrated, but it doesn't hurt), and a shot of vitamin B, which the vet said is an appetite stimulant. His weight was 89 grams. Is that a decent weight for an adult? I never weighed him when I got him. He's cranky, so if he doesn't want to be held that is fine by me. Overall he doesn't look like he lost much weight, his hips are not sunken, although his thighs look a bit thinner.

Now I play the waiting game, as they send their blood work out of town. I should know by Saturday.

What are your views on this situation? I think I got the proper care. And I'm happy she didn't just give me meds as a shot in the dark treatment. I do believe he will make a full recovery. I was chatting with my friend and he's looking into a pedialite mixture, he said would be very good for Lil Blue, as the vet meds are much more expensive.



Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male Panther Chameleon. 3 years old. Got him in June of 2014.
Handling - Never. First time being handled in my care was at the vet today.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? - Silkworms, hornworms, butter worms, crickets, super worms. What amount? Always has a few super worms(dusted with calcium w/o D) in his feeding dish at all times, when he is eating he will eat 6-8 average through out the week. What is the schedule? Besides the supers, a hornworm maybe once a week, same with silks(2) and butters(2-4). I basically use the crickets a few times a month to give the calcium w/vit D and multi vitamins(they dust the best). How are you gut-loading your feeders? Horns and silks get their regular chow. I tend to give more vegies to the horns. Veggies that are given to horns and supers are: carrots, bell peppers, squash, same veggies that my iguana gets to eat, so a wide variety.
Supplements - Zoo Med supplements. Reptivite, cal w/D and cal w/o D. Calcium at most meals, depending on what I feed. Vitamins and Cal/D a couple times a month.
Watering - I have the reptile pump up spray bottle. Mist for about 2-3 minutes total(I go around in circles visiting each cham about 3 times with the water). I do have a mist system, but I need a new pump. I mist more in summer time when it gets really hot, and on dry winter days they get more water too.
Fecal Description - Has always had a healthy poop from day one. Brown/grey/dark solid matter, with white urates, not very often do I see a touch of yellow/orange in it. I do not know if he has had a fecal in the past. I have not done one. He pooped on Sunday a few days ago, I wish he had waited two days so I could have brought it in. But it was very healthy and hydrated.
History - Captive bred and born. He was a breeder. 2.5 years old when I got him. He has a wart on his nose, between his eyes, that the previous owner said he was born with. Does not affect him, doesn't get bigger or split and ooze. Just takes awhile for that spot to shed.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Full mesh cage. 30 x 15 x 15 approximately.
Lighting - Exo terra tropical fluorescent tube 5.0(I meant to get the zoo med bulbs though). Bulb is 7 months old now. Basking bulb is just a household clear bulb. Had a 60 watt during summer, put in a 100 watt bulb when winter hit.
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Floor is 70F ish(dependent on room temp, I try my best to keep it consistent). Basking is 87F. Lowest overnight temp? It can get chilly upstairs, but nothing below 68F for sure. How do you measure these temps? Temp gun, the kind that mechanics use.
Humidity - I'll admit...I don't have a humidity gauge. House has a humidifier that keeps us at 40% though. I'm confident that the mistings give him what he needs.
Plants - No live plants at this time. I do have some ficus and schflerra growing up to be used when I make my new cages next month. All plastic plants in there right now.
Placement - Where is your cage located? Spare bedroom upstairs. Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? No, the bed is over the heat vent, which I keep partially closed. Just me and my boyfriend see him. At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Being on a dresser, the bottom of the cage is 30" or so up from the floor.
Location - Alberta, Canada.

Current Problem - Eyes randomly stay closed for a short period of time(day or two). Then he's ok. But stopped eating at Christmas time. Has not shown any other external signs of illness. Very hydrated and yes, I do see him drink at every watering. No eye infections. No breathing issues. Mobility and strength is good too. Normal basking behaviors. I know I'm going to end up with some type of medicine/vitamins to give him. Any tips for hand feeding, or syringing liquids and food? I know I have to be careful not to drown him. He doesn't like to be held. He poofs up and shows me his mouth whenever I go into his cage, so oral meds shouldn't be a problem haha.

I'm really hoping he recovers, as he isn't too old. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I also just wanted to post this in hopes that it can helps others too.

Thanks!

 

[LilBlue]

Here are some pictures. The first picture where he is actually blue, was when I first got him in June 2014. His eyes are nice and round. The 4 pictures with him fired up orange, you can see the change in the shape of his eyelids. Those were taken about a month ago.

 

[LilBlue]

Update - Picked up medicine for Lil Blue last Friday. Blood test results were: "Infection," dehydration, and low immune system...for $140 full blood panel I would have thought it would be more specific...I didn't even think blood work could show dehydration. They wouldn't tell me what vitamins he was lacking. Not impressed. So he is on Baytril, 0.05cc once a day for a month. And their vita-lux stuff, same amount for a month as well.

This vitamin paste they sold me is a major pain, it's thick, I have to let the jar sit in hot water for 20 min and it makes a huge mess, more on me and everything else than what's actually in the syringe. Could I use pedialyte instead?

Any tips for handling him to medicate? He became wise to my ways after one dose lol. Last night I did take him out, hold him firmly but gently and tried pinching behind the jaw area. I can't get his mouth open, even with getting in between his lips and teeth with the syringe. This isn't my first rodeo, he sure is stubborn, my usual tricks aren't working.

Both eyes have been open more often than not. But he is much darker, and he gets up later in the day, don't see him head to his basking area until noon-2pm, and lights go on at 7am. Could he be extra sensitive to light from the meds?

See how this goes, and if he's not back to eating in a couple weeks he's going to different vet. Will continue to keep this post updated.

 

[carol5208]

Sorry to hear your guy is having problems. I don't see anything that stands out as far as your set up and care. Who knows really. I have seen chameleons on here with the best of care and experienced owners get sick. I think it is like people, why does one get cancer when they smoke and one doesn't?. As far as the weight are you sure about that?. 89 grams would be extremely small for an adult male. The average weight for an adult Male is around 170 grams or so and they can weigh much more than that. I think the smallest adult I have seen on here was like 135 and that is considered small. He sure looks alot bigger than that in the pics. I really don't see his eye shape as looking all that odd, but maybe the pics is just not showing the detail. Sorry, I cannot be of more help other than to comment on the weight. I hope he turns around for you. Good luck Edit: I wanted to add something after going back and reading something I missed. The wart on his nose...that is not normal. Sometimes chameleons get an abcess in their sinus cavities which can in turn effect their eyesight. I have seen it more common in Veilds than Panthers. Just a thought. What did the vet say about the growth? Maybe the Baytril will help clear up the growth.

 

[LilBlue]

Thank you for replying, Carol. Maybe I read his weight wrong when the vet weighed him, I didn't have the best view. I'm going to weigh him again tonight when I take him out for meds. He is a really small nosy be panther, much smaller than my ambilobe.

As far as the wart on his nose goes, no, the vet didn't say anything. She didn't really pay any attention to what I was saying. I told her he had a small, clear eye crust on one eye (a week ago), but none since. She didn't even ask about my set up...And the original owner said he was born with that on his face, and it never caused problems. There is no obvious swelling around the bump or any where on his face, but seeing as this is the first time I've actually been able to hold him, I will look closer at it. His eyesight seems ok, when I approach both eyes are moving around and following my movements.

So far he seems to be doing ok with the meds and amounts. Last night I was trying to give him meds, then my boyfriend came into the room, Lil Blue came out onto my arm, and my boyfriend tried to touch him and he opened his mouth, so I found a new way to get his medicine in him lol!

 

[junglefries]

Just make sure to keep him hydrated at ALL times. Baytril is BRUTAL on the KIDNEYS. good luck

 

[Montium]

You may want to invest in one of these https://www.solarmeter.com/model62.html many florescent bulbs will only put out good UV for a few months. Some folks follow a six month rule of changing bulbs but with a meter you can know for sure when it's time to replace the bulb. Expensive I know, but worth it in the long run.

Good luck

 

[LilBlue]

Junglefries - thanks for that! I haven't given him a shower since before I started the meds. Wanted to see how he was reacting to the meds before I added stress of moving him to the shower, he's getting a shower tonight.

Montium - First off, that link crashed my computer (work computer though, heavily protected). I have been looking at solar meters, have a few saved in my Ebay. I think they are a great idea to have on hand, good investment.

His lights are 7 months old this month. I did get the exo terra 5.0 by mistake instead of the zoo med bulbs. Get my bonus next month, everyone gets new bulbs at that time

Seeing as it seems my husbandry is correct, I'm thinking his issues were caused by lighting. When I got him and one other at the same time from a breeder with their cages, he showed me the females he had on hand. I noticed they had the coil UV bulbs only. I'm assuming the males had the same. I'm thinking he was used to a more intense light focused in one area, and that's why my tube bulb isn't enough for him. I have moved it around the top of the enclosure on different angles, and noticed he tries to get under it the best he can.

My friend suggested I get the Zoo Med Power Sun UV, its a mercury vapour bulb. He said its all uv and basking in one, and my Lil Blue may like that more. I want to get him a better bulb a.s.a.p. but that power sun is a little rich for my blood, seeing as I just spent $400 at the vet. BUT I was thinking I could get either a new zoo med 5.0, or try a 10.0 tube bulb. What do you all think about that? I can afford a $30 bulb right now.

Since starting the medicine he has been a bit darker than normal, but not all the time. More so when he comes out for basking, could that be because of the vitamins I'm giving him, he's making himself dark to absorb the rays and process what I'm giving him? He's still drinking, has good grip and mobility.

And on a sad note...I didn't read that scale wrong at the vet, he really was 89 grams. Again, the vet showed no concern for that weight and didn't talk about it all, if an average weight is 170g, she should have known that he was severely under weight... I weighed him last night and he was 85-86 grams. I know he was losing weight with not eating for a month now, but he didn't look skinny, legs looked a bit thin, no hips sticking out. I guess I was so concentrated on what was going on with his eyes, I didn't realize the huge weight loss, that and between not wanting to stress him out more and he's such a grump I never took him out to monitor weight(lesson learned there). I tried poking a superworm in his mouth last night when he was gaping at me, but he spit it out. How long should I wait before starting to force feed? What should I feed and how? He really needs to gain weight.

Luckily I have my bulk order of feeders coming in tomorrow, so I will have lots of horns, silks and everything else to encourage him to eat.

Thanks again all for your support

 

[LilBlue]

Update. Lil Blue sure is a tough feller. We just got back from the vet. A good vet this time, where I should have taken him in the first place.

Blue still hasn't eaten since November. The growth was irritated slightly by the baytril, but returned to its normal size after a week. Since his last round on meds he has had eye boogers from both eyes, fairly large ones. I tried force feeding him all this time by placing different feeders in his mouth. Never tried syringe feeding.

So today, we went through his history. The vet was very surprised at how decent he looks even thought he hasn't eaten for months. He now weighs 74 grams. She used some wet q tips and rolled some crud out of his eyes. She then was able to peel off(and it came off easily) the scab on his forehead(see pics above). She pressed the q tip on his nose and pushed towards the now crator in his face, and a bunch of thick puss came out. The skin under the scab appears to be healthy.

His treatment is:

Tobrex gel, to be applied to both eyes and wound on his forehead. Every 12 hours. 3 weeks.

Ceftazidime antibiotic. .01cc every 3 days by muscular injection for a total of 8 injections.

Emeraid carnivore/omnivore nutritional aid. 1.0-1.2 cc daily.

Lil Blue has been so strong willed to live. I will do anything for him. I just know removing that abbess on his head will make a huge difference.

I'll add a picture if I can get one later of his head. He's definitely not in a good mood lol.

 

[sapphira80]

I'm sure he will get better quickly now that you've got him all patched up. You sound like an excellent chameleon parent.

I just wanted to mention for future reference or for anyone reading this thread later, dehydration is easily detected in blood work. The majority of blood is made up of plasma, which is mostly water. If the body is dehydrated, it pulls water from the blood, which makes the blood thicker and more concentrated.

The body also needs vitamins and trace minerals for organs to function properly (for example, the heart needs sodium and potassium to beat). When the body is sick or in malnutrition, these minerals and vitamins get out of balance. The nutritional supplement is probably just to make sure the minimum levels are maintained until he's eating well.

Anyway, just wanted to add that two cents so the tests would make more sense.

Good luck and I hope your cham is better soon!

 

[jannb]

Fingers crossed that Lil Blue will have a speedy recovery. I'm glad that you found a better vet for him.

 

[MWheelock]

Just a quick note.

There are a lot of Panthers and veileds that don't do well with plastic plants or plants with hard branches(like hibiscus).
They consistently rub their eyes on a branch causing recurrent infection. Surprisingly one eye is usually worse because the like the rest of us are righties or lefties. So antibiotics work until you stop.

With the list if gut loaders, I would be surprised if this is a vitamin deficiency. (Everyone wants to jump to a vit A deficiency when that is not the case.)

Suggest switching to schiffilaria or ficus only and finish out the ophtho meds. The live plants will also increase humidity between misting.

Also a misting system would help. It takes my guys a couple minutes for them to want to take a shower, and then they get in and shift all around and get wet. You can ask others, but they will sit there and flush their eyes far a long time.
Hope that helps,
Matthew

 

[LilBlue]

Thank you everyone for your input and good wishes. I hope this round of meds does the trick.

My friend explained to me how dehydration is found in blood work. Thank you for explaining it for everyone to read, very clear and easy to understand. I was so frustrated with that other vet, just wouldn't tell me anything...

He has been in his new enclosure for about 3 months now. https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-new-enclosures-140164/

Misting system goes off 5 times a day, for one minute each. I'm thinking I want to change that to 3 times a day, for 2 minutes each. Everyone else is fine on the original schedule. It's just Lil Blue that seems thirsty all the time. So he comes out for showers, and I directly hand mist him once or twice every evening for 15-20 minutes and he drinks the whole time. He has a ficus plant, and he did have an Anthurium orchid in there, which I just took out because it was directly under the nozzle and died. I'm replacing it with an umbrella plant. I wash and rinse plants a few times with light dish soap water, then replant in coco fibre soil, and add large flat stones on top of the soil.

I was a bit worried about him on Saturday, he received his first shot of medicine at the vet. I put him in his cage, he moved along the vine a bit. Checked on him a few hours later, and he was still in the same spot, but holding up his front foot and back foot. I put a towel in his cage just in case he fell. He went to his sleep spot at the correct time though, and I felt relieved.

Next day, he returned to his normal colour. I took him out, fed him by syringe, and then he went outside for the day. And oh man did he love it! It was encouraging to see him flatten out and turn side ways to bask. Both my boyfriend and I took turns giving him lots of misting through out the afternoon. When I brought him in, I fed him and he toured his cage. Gosh he's a grumpy old...yeah lol. Glad he's still feisty.

And again, a huge thank you to all that take the time to give input. This is the first forum I've ever been on, that is so very supportive, and non judgemental.

 

[LilBlue]

You won't believe it...

Hey everyone, just another update for my Lil Blue. Last round of medicine cleared up the infection. Eyes have been clear for a couple weeks now. Been feeding Emeraid by syringe. We had a check up last weekend, and now we're just trying to heal up the crater on his head. And the best part...HE FINALLY ATE!!!! He zapped up a silkworm from my hand like he had never seen one before on Sunday. After 8 months of not eating, not ashamed to say I cried tears of joy

 

[JoeVet]

This is the first I've seen this thread. Its a good learning experience. First I didn't notice much with the eyes but that skin lesion was consistent and should have been investigated by the first vet. When seeing a vet for the first time they should be going over husbandry. That is the essence of reptile practice. The fact that husbandry wasn't discussed is a red flag. The second vet not only discussed husbandry and evaluated the eyes but explored the granuloma in the middle of his face.

It would have been good to post the bloodwork. A blood cell count can tell us if there is infection and maybe an indication of what kind but not where it is. Hydration is assessed by total blood protein levels. Increased levels means less water and thus dehydration. Blood chemistries can let us know a little about organ function but the values are not as specific as in mammals and must be matched with clinical signs for a best guess. Bloodwork does not evaluate vitamin concentrations. The diagnosis of vitamin A deficiency is based on clinical signs, husbandry, and response to treatment.

Lastly its up to you the keepers to know as much as you can about the specific diseases and requirements of a chameleon and educate the vets. The first general reptile medicine book didn't come out until 1995. Prior to that there was little to no reptile medical training. There is more now but the amount unknown is still large. Chameleons are significantly different from other reptiles. A good vet should listen to what you say. The client - veterinarian relationship is a partnership for the good of the patient. The more you are doing your part the better the vet can guide you. Try to learn about the meds that are given, what they are and why they are prescribed.

Glad all is going well. Guess the last lesson is that reptiles are slow to get sick and slow to recover. Good to hear he is finally eating again.

 

[Carlton]

That's great news!

I'm always surprised how extensive these nasal abscesses end up being. I had a wc verrucosus who started showing signs of one (the growing lump under the skin on his face between the eyes). Took him to the vet who probed the lump, scraped at the skin, and found to our horror a gaping tunnel that extended all the way through to the roof of his mouth! He carefully removed quite a bit of necrotic material though found no pus or very active inflammation, more like a build up of old sebaceous (sp?) stuff. It was quite a shock. I kept the area cleaned out for a while, the skin eventually closed over, and he was fine. No eye problems until several years later when he was an oldster.

These are so common I have to wonder what aspect of our husbandry favors them and what we can possibly do to keep them from developing.