Transvaalense tongue falling out

[laurie]

It is the tongue falling out limp. All of it doesn't fall out and she gets it back in. It might be a supplement issue. Because her food is so tiny it may not have held the supplements as well as needed. I will start liquid calicum tomorrow. If she is still with me.

Thanks, John and everyone. I just so hate to lose this little girl.

 

[Julle]

I thought i throw my opinion in about the supplementing..

I have notice that over supplementing with vitamins will have more serious effects than little less or nothing at all, especially with females.
They develop edema very easily and get lethargic.
Some babies may even die if they are supplemented with excessive amount of vitamin powder.
Gutload is the best way to go.
Too much minerals/calcium gets them sneezing it out, so that is bad also.

And about the humidity.. 25% is definitely way too low, but on the other hand, too much misting is even more bad.
They do best with day humidity down to 40% lowest and 90% highest at night.

These are just from my own experience with transvaalense.

Transvaalense can be a bit tricky, but when you have the conditions just right, they are relatively easy to care for.

 

[Turningdoc]

You are correct Julie. Over or under supplementing can be bad. Due to smaller size, I would be careful w liquid calcium. If she's not immediately falling apart, can probably just dust feeders with calcium every feeding and try to feed small amnts multiple times per day as the dust comes off if they are in the cage too long or get misted. You might also want to use Cal-D every day for 3-4 days and if possible get out in sun as vit D is just as important as the Calcium itself. It is required as a cofactor for calcium metabolism

As far as gutloading, this works great for large feeders cham keepers are used to, but not at all for small flies, house flies, or pinhead crix. There has been unending research and discussion of this by the dartfrog community.
see here

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/38206-gut-loading.html

Signs Ca/vit D defiency are muscle weakness, uncoordination, and lethargy regardless of the animal (including humans). They occur months before MBD. MBD is the result of the body harvesting all of it's Ca from the bones and not a food source. This takes a long time.

Dave

 

[Olimpia]

About the humidity, perhaps I should have over-stated that they are kept outside in Florida for weeks at a time (my male is outside right now), the humidity obviously isn't that low outside.

But inside, yes, with the exception of the misting times when it does spike it does stay low. But because I mist for a minute or two in the morning they get wet, wash out their eyes, soak, and then go on with their day. I have not had hydration issues, there was nothing in the necropsy (kidney issues, for example) that would have led to that conclusion, and they took hours to shed. It's easier to hydrate a 5g animal than it is to treat them for a respiratory infection, frankly.

 

[Psychobunny]

One time I looked over at Squee and saw that his tounge was hanging straight down from his mouth about 4''!! he was just standing there, like frozen! needless to say, I freaked out for a minute, but he "reeled" it back in!!

Sometimes, they get spooked at something and will freeze like that, even with food in their mouth. So I figured thats what it was.

I also think he may have poor vision, because he misses his target a lot, and sometimes zaps at nothing at all!!

I hand feed him silkies and he tries to zap them with his tounge from only a few inches and keeps missing. So he gives up and just walks over to them
and picks them up with his mouth

I think he needs target parctice lessons, or glasses

 

[Olimpia]

One time I looked over at Squee and saw that his tounge was hanging straight down from his mouth about 4''!! he was just standing there, like frozen! needless to say, I freaked out for a minute, but he "reeled" it back in!!

Sometimes, they get spooked at something and will freeze like that, even with food in their mouth. So I figured thats what it was.

I also think he may have poor vision, because he misses his target a lot, and sometimes zaps at nothing at all!!

I hand feed him silkies and he tries to zap them with his tounge from only a few inches and keeps missing. So he gives up and just walks over to them
and picks them up with his mouth

I think he needs target parctice lessons, or glasses

This isn't normal behavior, chameleons shouldn't really miss their food and they shouldn't just let their tongues hang out :/ I would re-evaluate your supplementation and nutrition as well (or get him checked out) because that's not normal behavior. It's ok for them to get frozen with food in their mouths, but not to miss from short distances or let their tongues drop.

 

[laurie]

Thanks to both of you, Julle and Turningdoc. Julle I hope you are correct,and at some point it will get easy. I can't even consider any outside time, it is 10f or -12.2 c. I live way north and have very harsh winters.

I have just looked at the dendroboard info and that will be very useful.

The info you both are providing is priceless for me, thanks again.

I thought i throw my opinion in about the supplementing..

I have notice that over supplementing with vitamins will have more serious effects than little less or nothing at all, especially with females.
They develop edema very easily and get lethargic.
Some babies may even die if they are supplemented with excessive amount of vitamin powder.
Gutload is the best way to go.
Too much minerals/calcium gets them sneezing it out, so that is bad also.

And about the humidity.. 25% is definitely way too low, but on the other hand, too much misting is even more bad.
They do best with day humidity down to 40% lowest and 90% highest at night.

These are just from my own experience with transvaalense.

Transvaalense can be a bit tricky, but when you have the conditions just right, they are relatively easy to care for.

You are correct Julie. Over or under supplementing can be bad. Due to smaller size, I would be careful w liquid calcium. If she's not immediately falling apart, can probably just dust feeders with calcium every feeding and try to feed small amnts multiple times per day as the dust comes off if they are in the cage too long or get misted. You might also want to use Cal-D every day for 3-4 days and if possible get out in sun as vit D is just as important as the Calcium itself. It is required as a cofactor for calcium metabolism

As far as gutloading, this works great for large feeders cham keepers are used to, but not at all for small flies, house flies, or pinhead crix. There has been unending research and discussion of this by the dartfrog community.
see here

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/38206-gut-loading.html

Signs Ca/vit D defiency are muscle weakness, uncoordination, and lethargy regardless of the animal (including humans). They occur months before MBD. MBD is the result of the body harvesting all of it's Ca from the bones and not a food source. This takes a long time.

Dave

 

[Psychobunny]

This isn't normal behavior, chameleons shouldn't really miss their food and they shouldn't just let their tongues hang out :/ I would re-evaluate your supplementation and nutrition as well (or get him checked out) because that's not normal behavior. It's ok for them to get frozen with food in their mouths, but not to miss from short distances or let their tongues drop.

I have been dusting all his food w/ Repashy calcium plus and gut load my cricks and roaches.
He is eating well because I see nice big poops every day.

Do you think I should up his calcium and water intake?

Otherwise, he looks great and is strong and active.

 

[Seeco]

i second the rec for more vitamins

 

[sandrachameleon]

As far as gutloading, this works great for large feeders cham keepers are used to, but not at all for small flies, house flies, or pinhead crix.

you can gutload pinheads a little, and you can certainly gutload baby silkworms (mulberry, grape vine and dandelion leaves), leaf rollers, baby snails, small terrestrial isopods, baby stick bugs, even baby termites and roach nymps and baby superworms.

 

[Turningdoc]

Agreed, I just don't keep the entire insect world for feeders. Too much work!
Has anyone ever tried liquid Calcium in mist water for sick chams? This just occured to me as a possible treatment. It would allow more dilute supplementation and reduce risk of alkalii toxicity/burn from straight liquid. maybe mix 25-50% w RO water?

 

[Solid Snake]

Has anyone ever tried liquid Calcium in mist water for sick chams? This just occured to me as a possible treatment. It would allow more dilute supplementation and reduce risk of alkalii toxicity/burn from straight liquid. maybe mix 25-50% w RO water?

No.
Have you tried to calculate the exact ratio misting water your chameleon intakes so that you would be able to know how much liquid calcium to use per-gallon? Have you studied the effects of liquid calcium on the eyes and skin of a chameleon? How about live plants?

 

[Turningdoc]

I agree, should probably just stick w dust

 

[ataraxia]

Laurie has raised quite a few young chameleons. For this one to be first subject to under supplementation truly would surprise me. I just dont see it. Anything can happen but to under supplement you have to neglect unless the chameleon has other issues inhibiting absorption you cant see. Again i just dont see this as the cause of the issue.

 

[Turningdoc]

In no way was I intending to question Laurie as a keeper. It's just that different feeders carry unique nutritional challenges. With fruit flies and bean beetles, Calcium is always a major problem. You could have raised many larger species on a different feeder system and had no problems at all. In fact, I admire Laurie for sharing her challenges so we can all try to help think through them. It's fully possible this problem is not from calcium deficiency, but I was merely raising it as a known problem in smaller species.
Great reference here:
http://www.nagonline.net/Technical Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

Note fruit flies have 1/10th the Calcium of gutloaded crickets

 

[pssh]

The link you included only discussed using gutloading as a source of calcium. Laurie is a very capable keeper, and I highly doubt that she is relying solely on gutloading for calcium. Like Ataraxia said, unless there was some other vitamin imbalance or other internal thing going on that we cannot see, I really doubt that it is a calcium problem.

Laurie, I have no experience with tongue problems like this, but I am sending good thoughts your way.

 

[ataraxia]

In no way was I intending to question Laurie as a keeper.

I didnt think you are insinuating anything. Your advice is solid for the situation. Heck, im wrong 99% of the time. So, ignore me \

Laurie, how is the tongue today?

 

[laurie]

Thanks for all of you for your help, and to my friends for the vote of confidence in my cham keeping. I don't think any of it matters now. I don't expect her to make it through the night. I have taken some pictures from this afternoon. I will post them tomorrow.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[showjet95]

Im really tired of hearing from different members that somehow these chameleons were doomed from the start. These are all captive bred animals from a very experienced breeder with 20+ years of breeding chameleons. We are not sent the "leftovers" or "bad batches" of chameleons, and I dont keep the best for myself. I would like to keep a good reputation doing this and have many more imports down the road so I dont wanna shoot myself in the foot and keep the best and send any that are inferior to people that pay good money for them, its the other way around actually. With the last import, I had a group of B. pumilum and there was a very small female and 2 larger more colorful females. Well, I sent the larger more colorful ones to a member and kept the much smaller less colorful when I could have easily kept the biggest and baddest for myself. Thats not me, and thats not how I do things.
Anyways, I just received an email from him because I wrote to him explaining my concern that others on here are having. He insists that he doesnt have any problems or hear about any problems with the ones he sells to anyone in Europe, just here. Now, I see them all first hand when they arrive and take them out of the box, and they ALL look very healthy, active and alert. Hissing, gaping, etc. I keep them all for at least a few days sometimes even a week to let them get adjusted and to make sure they are all eating and drinking like normal before sending them out again. There has to be something missing with husbandry. I am not saying anyone that loses a Bradypodion has questionable husbandry skills, Im just saying there is something else going on. I wrote the breeder another email asking him to give me his EXACT methods of keeping them in detail, so as soon as I hear back I will post it.

 

[Solid Snake]

These are all captive bred animals from a very experienced breeder with 20+ years of breeding chameleons. We are not sent the "leftovers" or "bad batches" of chameleons, and I dont keep the best for myself. I would like to keep a good reputation doing this and have many more imports down the road so I dont wanna shoot myself in the foot and keep the best and send any that are inferior to people that pay good money for them, its the other way around actually.

Id like to add my $.02 here.

I was very pleased with the specimens I received. All did very well and were healthy when they were with me. The exception being the one that sustained a visible injury(after months in my care), and later died, and that could only really happen due to neglect on my part, somewhere, at some point, in my opinion. I also shipped these animals out with no prior animal shipping experience, and they arrived at there destination fine, and continue to do well to my knowledge. We all know that living things have health issues, for whatever reason, at some point in time. Especially when kept in an unnatural environment...

Im saying this because, as someone who has received animals through the overseas gentleman, and Paul, and being a person that cares about Laurie's little one, it is my personal opinion that these "issues" do not occur because of "bad stock". These species came in as "new to us" basically, and we all expected a learning curve.

ALOT of chameleons sustain tongue, and other issues.

Laurie, I would very much like to hear an update, I dont hope for the best, because I know she is getting the best...

Keep us posted...