Veggies 😤

[Thatcher]

I saw someone on tik tok recommending to feed veggies to chams. I told them politely that this was not true and that they should come here and talk to people but they didn't. Just something I was mad about, continue with your day.

Also I've been here less beacause I'm in high school now which is very long and tiring but I'm trying to help as much as I can.

 

[kinyonga]

Wow...high school! Are you really that old already!

 

[kinyonga]

Food for thought...
We say don't feed the chameleons greens, veggies, etc because they can't digest them and don't eat them in the wild normally either...but...

If lots of insects we feed to the chameleons, eat veggies, greens, etc and we feed the chameleons insects that are well fed and gutloaded, then isn't the only difference, if we feed the veggies and greens to the chameleon as well as to the insects, that they might not have the right digestive enzymes to digest the greens, etc.....UNLESS the insect's enzymes will continue to work in the chameleon's stomach to digest the veggies, greens the chameleon ate on its own.

Also...we don't feed the chameleons the same exact species of insects they would get in the wild....so isn't that unnatural anyway?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I originally fed veileds greens, veggies, etc...but not on purpose....I put them in a dish in the cage to provide food for the insects...but most veileds ate them too...either accidentally when they shot at an insect or on purpose because they seemed to like them.

 

[Thatcher]

Wow...high school! Are you really that old already!

Yup!

 

[nightanole]

Food for thought...
We say don't feed the chameleons greens, veggies, etc because they can't digest them and don't eat them in the wild normally either...but...

If lots of insects we feed to the chameleons, eat veggies, greens, etc and we feed the chameleons insects that are well fed and gutloaded, then isn't the only difference, if we feed the veggies and greens to the chameleon as well as to the insects, that they might not have the right digestive enzymes to digest the greens, etc.....UNLESS the insect's enzymes will continue to work in the chameleon's stomach to digest the veggies, greens the chameleon ate on its own.

Also...we don't feed the chameleons the same exact species of insects they would get in the wild....so isn't that unnatural anyway?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I originally fed veileds greens, veggies, etc...but not on purpose....I put them in a dish in the cage to provide food for the insects...but most veileds ate them too...either accidentally when they shot at an insect or on purpose because they seemed to like them.

If you put something in your piehole only 3 things can happen...

It gets oxidized and comes out the other end.
It gets temporally stored, then gets oxidized and comes out the other end.
It is indigestible and just comes out the other end.


If you feed a domesticated bunny a carrot, it does not have the enzymes to digest it, and will come out the other end as carrot junks, and if you feed it alot at a time, you will end up with a vet visit.


On to veileds... Has anyone ever seen whole veggie matter in the poop? They certainly dont chew, so with all the deforestation that happens in their cages, the poop should be full of leaves etc, just like the bug shells. I have never found this to be the case...

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."If you feed a domesticated bunny a carrot, it does not have the enzymes to digest it, and will come out the other end as carrot junks, and if you feed it alot at a time, you will end up with a vet visit"...that's something I didn't know...but then I don't keep bunnies.

You said..."On to veileds... Has anyone ever seen whole veggie matter in the poop? They certainly dont chew, so with all the deforestation that happens in their cages, the poop should be full of leaves etc, just like the bug shells. I have never found this to be the case"...neither have I.

(BTW...There is one more way stuff you put in your pie hole can come out...you can throw up! Not something a chameleon seems to do as a rule thank goodness!)

 

[nightanole]

You said..."If you feed a domesticated bunny a carrot, it does not have the enzymes to digest it, and will come out the other end as carrot junks, and if you feed it alot at a time, you will end up with a vet visit"...that's something I didn't know...but then I don't keep bunnies.

You said..."On to veileds... Has anyone ever seen whole veggie matter in the poop? They certainly dont chew, so with all the deforestation that happens in their cages, the poop should be full of leaves etc, just like the bug shells. I have never found this to be the case"...neither have I.

(BTW...There is one more way stuff you put in your pie hole can come out...you can throw up! Not something a chameleon seems to do as a rule thank goodness!)

On a not lighter note, birds puke "up". So if your cockatiel has a really sticky top of head and looks like a reject from an orphan home, its cuz it shot the puke straight up in the air, and it just ran all over its head...

And it really doesnt like a head bath

 

[kinyonga]

On a not lighter note, birds puke "up". So if your cockatiel has a really sticky top of head and looks like a reject from an orphan home, its cuz it shot the puke straight up in the air, and it just ran all over its head...

And it really doesnt like a head bath

Glad I don't have birds now too!

 

[javadi]

Food for thought...
We say don't feed the chameleons greens, veggies, etc because they can't digest them and don't eat them in the wild normally either...but...

If lots of insects we feed to the chameleons, eat veggies, greens, etc and we feed the chameleons insects that are well fed and gutloaded, then isn't the only difference, if we feed the veggies and greens to the chameleon as well as to the insects, that they might not have the right digestive enzymes to digest the greens, etc.....UNLESS the insect's enzymes will continue to work in the chameleon's stomach to digest the veggies, greens the chameleon ate on its own.

Also...we don't feed the chameleons the same exact species of insects they would get in the wild....so isn't that unnatural anyway?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I originally fed veileds greens, veggies, etc...but not on purpose....I put them in a dish in the cage to provide food for the insects...but most veileds ate them too...either accidentally when they shot at an insect or on purpose because they seemed to like them.

I think it's a great point of discussion. It was addressed above a bit, but I guess then the question becomes, what do we want the chameleons to gain by eating vegetables? I would argue that not being able to digest them does not equal them being bad to consume. It's not just about calories, right? Consumption of non-digestible (and digestible) fiber for instance, is extremely beneficial in humans for myriad reasons. So to me, digestion is not all that matters and more should be considered about the potential utility of allowing chams to eat vegetables/plants. I don't think this speculation is sufficient to alter how we manage plant consumption by calyptratus in captivity, but I think we should steer a little further from the idea that it's bad simply because there's not as much evidence that they can digest it fully.

As for directly answering the question, as above, here are my thoughts. Whether enzymes are functional depends on the environment they are present (and other factors described by Michaelis-Menten kinetics, see https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Struc...s-Menten equation arises,and P is the product.) in so to my knowledge, we don't know if the chameleon's GI system is the appropriate conditions for bug enzyme activity. Probably a pretty low amount of the enzymes to begin with compared to the full gut size of the chameleon. That, plus degradation of the enzymes due to GI conditions, makes me think that residual activity of these enzymes ultimately doesn't do a whole lot though as far as breaking down the plant material. Just an idea though.

This is kind of an aside, and not in direct reply to what's been said here, but I think a lot of the recommendations for chameleon care are really based largely on hearsay, anecdotes, or whoever speaks the loudest. I think we should always be careful proclaiming info about chameleon care as facts, and moreso should reference this info as what our experiences suggest rather than biological facts. Not enough controlled studies addressing things unfortunately. For example, many "people" indicate that chameleons don't digest sugars and so we shouldn't feed fruits to them. The reality is that this is based on almost nothing. However, a lack of evidence that it improves any aspect of their health makes me personally not recommend it.

On the veggie thing, I think people probably say not to feed them veggies because it's unclear that they derive any benefit from it, and we wouldn't want someone feeding their veileds nothing but veggies, potentially leading to their starvation. But, what seems to be the bigger problem here is obesity in veileds. So if they can be made full by eating plants, thus lowering their caloric intake, maybe that's actually helpful for preventing obesity.

Just some thoughts, it's an interesting question and discussion.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."I saw someone on tik tok recommending to feed veggies to chams. I told them politely that this was not true and that they should come here and talk to people but they didn't. Just something I was mad about, continue with your day"...hope you're not mad anymore. This is something that many people have differing opinions on and until we can learn more about it, it's going to continue to be controversial. I'm quit feeding them fruits and veggies a long time ago...but I'm still not sure what the answer is. They seem to do ok if they eat some plants, etc...but it doesn't seem to be a problem if they don't IMHO.
Also we can only suggest that people talk to others about things...we can't make them.

 

[kinyonga]

YOU SAID..."I think it's a great point of discussion. It was addressed above a bit, but I guess then the question becomes, what do we want the chameleons to gain by eating vegetables? I would argue that not being able to digest them does not equal them being bad to consume. It's not just about calories, right? Consumption of non-digestible (and digestible) fiber for instance, is extremely beneficial in humans for myriad reasons. So to me, digestion is not all that matters and more should be considered about the potential utility of allowing chams to eat vegetables/plants. I don't think this speculation is sufficient to alter how we manage plant consumption by calyptratus in captivity, but I think we should steer a little further from the idea that it's bad simply because there's not as much evidence that they can digest it fully"...WELL SAID...I'M NOT SURE THEY ARE HARMFUL FOR THEM TO INGEST. EVEN IF THE ONLY PURPOSE THEY SERVE IS ROUGHAGE!

YOU SAID..."As for directly answering the question, as above, here are my thoughts. Whether enzymes are functional depends on the environment they are present (and other factors described by Michaelis-Menten kinetics, see https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Struc...s-Menten equation arises,and P is the product.) in so to my knowledge, we don't know if the chameleon's GI system is the appropriate conditions for bug enzyme activity. Probably a pretty low amount of the enzymes to begin with compared to the full gut size of the chameleon. That, plus degradation of the enzymes due to GI conditions, makes me think that residual activity of these enzymes ultimately doesn't do a whole lot though as far as breaking down the plant material. Just an idea though"...I REALLYBDONT HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THIS EITHER.

YOU SAID..."This is kind of an aside, and not in direct reply to what's been said here, but I think a lot of the recommendations for chameleon care are really based largely on hearsay, anecdotes, or whoever speaks the loudest. I think we should always be careful proclaiming info about chameleon care as facts, and moreso should reference this info as what our experiences suggest rather than biological facts. Not enough controlled studies addressing things unfortunately. For example, many "people" indicate that chameleons don't digest sugars and so we shouldn't feed fruits to them. The reality is that this is based on almost nothing. However, a lack of evidence that it improves any aspect of their health makes me personally not recommend it"...AND YET WE RECOMMEND USING BEE POLLEN, WHICH I BELIEVE HAS QUITE A BIT OF SUGAR IN IT.

YOU SAID...On the veggie thing, I think people probably say not to feed them veggies because it's unclear that they derive any benefit from it, and we wouldn't want someone feeding their veileds nothing but veggies, potentially leading to their starvation. But, what seems to be the bigger problem here is obesity in veileds. So if they can be made full by eating plants, thus lowering their caloric intake, maybe that's actually helpful for preventing obesity"...interesting idea!

YOU SAID..."Just some thoughts, it's an interesting question and discussion"...WORTH FURTHER STUDY I THINK.

@Thatcher SORRY FOR HIJACKING YOUR THREAD. THANKS FOR BRINGING IT UP THOUGH. HOPE YOUR NOT ANGRY STILL. WE ENCOUNTER ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE IN OUR JOURNEYS AND WE WILL NEVER GET ALL OF THEM TO UNDERSTAND OR AGREE WITH US. ALL WE CAN DO IS TYE BEST WE CAN. (Sorry about the capitals..it's not yelling..I just forgot to turn them off.)

 

[Thatcher]

YOU SAID..."I think it's a great point of discussion. It was addressed above a bit, but I guess then the question becomes, what do we want the chameleons to gain by eating vegetables? I would argue that not being able to digest them does not equal them being bad to consume. It's not just about calories, right? Consumption of non-digestible (and digestible) fiber for instance, is extremely beneficial in humans for myriad reasons. So to me, digestion is not all that matters and more should be considered about the potential utility of allowing chams to eat vegetables/plants. I don't think this speculation is sufficient to alter how we manage plant consumption by calyptratus in captivity, but I think we should steer a little further from the idea that it's bad simply because there's not as much evidence that they can digest it fully"...WELL SAID...I'M NOT SURE THEY ARE HARMFUL FOR THEM TO INGEST. EVEN IF THE ONLY PURPOSE THEY SERVE IS ROUGHAGE!

YOU SAID..."As for directly answering the question, as above, here are my thoughts. Whether enzymes are functional depends on the environment they are present (and other factors described by Michaelis-Menten kinetics, see https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Structural_Biochemistry/Enzyme/Michaelis_and_Menten_Equation#:~:text=The Michaelis-Menten equation arises,and P is the product.) in so to my knowledge, we don't know if the chameleon's GI system is the appropriate conditions for bug enzyme activity. Probably a pretty low amount of the enzymes to begin with compared to the full gut size of the chameleon. That, plus degradation of the enzymes due to GI conditions, makes me think that residual activity of these enzymes ultimately doesn't do a whole lot though as far as breaking down the plant material. Just an idea though"...I REALLYBDONT HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THIS EITHER.

YOU SAID..."This is kind of an aside, and not in direct reply to what's been said here, but I think a lot of the recommendations for chameleon care are really based largely on hearsay, anecdotes, or whoever speaks the loudest. I think we should always be careful proclaiming info about chameleon care as facts, and moreso should reference this info as what our experiences suggest rather than biological facts. Not enough controlled studies addressing things unfortunately. For example, many "people" indicate that chameleons don't digest sugars and so we shouldn't feed fruits to them. The reality is that this is based on almost nothing. However, a lack of evidence that it improves any aspect of their health makes me personally not recommend it"...AND YET WE RECOMMEND USING BEE POLLEN, WHICH I BELIEVE HAS QUITE A BIT OF SUGAR IN IT.

YOU SAID...On the veggie thing, I think people probably say not to feed them veggies because it's unclear that they derive any benefit from it, and we wouldn't want someone feeding their veileds nothing but veggies, potentially leading to their starvation. But, what seems to be the bigger problem here is obesity in veileds. So if they can be made full by eating plants, thus lowering their caloric intake, maybe that's actually helpful for preventing obesity"...interesting idea!

YOU SAID..."Just some thoughts, it's an interesting question and discussion"...WORTH FURTHER STUDY I THINK.

@Thatcher SORRY FOR HIJACKING YOUR THREAD. THANKS FOR BRINGING IT UP THOUGH. HOPE YOUR NOT ANGRY STILL. WE ENCOUNTER ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE IN OUR JOURNEYS AND WE WILL NEVER GET ALL OF THEM TO UNDERSTAND OR AGREE WITH US. ALL WE CAN DO IS TYE BEST WE CAN. (Sorry about the capitals..it's not yelling..I just forgot to turn them off.)

It's all good I love when huge thoughts and opinions come up on my threads and any thread for that matter!

 

[kinyonga]

Glad you didn't mind!
Don't know how huge the thoughts are but thinking is a good thing!