Veiled female MBD, possible constipation

[Riven]

Sometimes... I feel like I'm talking to myself, lol. One of these days there will be a whole page of just me posting! ( Not saying that no one is reading or replying, just that I obviously talk a lot, you should meet me in person!)

Okay, evening report. Didn't eat much more, two more "bites" basically what I put in her shelf. BUT, we did have some really good mouth movements. I think she was almost ready to strike but then my youngest come into the room... she was holding on the the rim of the cup/bowl trying to get close enough and get a good spot, good tongue movement. So I think the fluids really helped, I have 3 subq treatments, I did small amounts as not to overload her kidneys.

The best part of the day was my daughter calls down and is like... "Mom.... you might want to come here..." I'm yell back hold on, I'm helping Andi with her homework... then I go up there and see the craziest sight. Wish I had a camera ready and there I would've taken a pic of her ambition for lack of better terms.

I guess I should give a little back story. I put in a water drip using IV tubing for her, and I was thinking if I put it closer down she could just drink off of it, my thought was if I put a tree or something to drip onto she'd climb up it... soooo, I'm sure you experienced owners know exactly where this is going. I had the tubing over to the door where I could squeeze it through without crimping it, so it was basically running from one corner to the other, and there she was just hanging up in the top corner by the door, a front let, a back leg, and her tail... how she got up that far without falling, I have no idea. But I moved the tubing, and she kept eying it...

This whole thing brought me to a new perspective. What if... she's not eating because she feels good enough to want to be comfortable and feel safe... So, I put her other shorter plant in for her, and bunched it up next to her pitiful looking vine plant she's been mauling. I figured if she can climb the little zip line there, she's pretty safe on those two plants. I put her on that plant in fact by the dish, perching above the worms off the plant ( I always make sure she's higher than them because that's how she ate before ) and this has been the best response in several days.

I think the fluids are helping as well, I plan to continue them at least tomorrow and probably until she's eating again, either her soup or her bugs. I probably should have kept on it before, I just feel so bad with all of her shots, then adding more. We're going to have to change her name to Pin Cushion... actually every animal here has at least two names, so perhaps that's her last name, Pascal Pincushion, has a ring to it.

Tonight's weight was 24, so between fluids, the few bites, and whatever she might have drank before climbing up the tubing she gained 2 grams. Not bad for a day I think.

Sorry for the novel, I actually shortened it some!

 

[SonTigerPantherCham]

Riven, I havent posted on your thread til now, but I have read everything.

You are an amazing dedicated person with so much compassion and knowledge, I look forward everyday to your updates on Pascal Pincushion.

I know it must be a slow go, but the patience and gentleness you are showing her is truly remarkable

She will get better, she just has to, maybe her hanging on the tubing was her way of letting you know she wanted a little more in her cage!!

I think everyone here will tell you, you are not alone, everyone is pulling for the 2 of you.
and you can talk til pigs fly. you are informative, intelligent and it is a pleasure to read your posts!!

and thats my 2 cents!, anne

 

[Riven]

Awwww... Thank you Anne. Sometimes I forget to stop blabbering. She's so strong and fiesty. She gives me little hisses when she gets her shots. And she's starting to resist it a lot more. It's much harder to get a good quick injection when she's flailing around!

With chins, if they go off food, you've got less than 48 hours, and that's pushing it for time as their digestive systems die if they're not constantly moving. I'm assuming since no one else was alarmed by her going off food, lizards can handle that better.

I know she wants her fake vine so bad, that's her favorite thing to sit on, but I'm worried she's not ready yet, not enough hind leg control. I can spiral it and smoosh it down short I guess... she wants to be at the top of the cage so badly. I'm hoping that the increased "homey-ness" ( that is totally not a real word! ) will help her eat more, she seems like she really wants to, I'm not sure why she's holding back. She did not like the pheonix worms, but I do wish the butter worms were a bit smaller, I wonder if that's part of her hesitation.

So folks, stay tuned to the Pascal Pincushion channel for tomorrow's installment of Lunch with a Lizard...

 

[SonTigerPantherCham]

i know elliots has really small butters, and thats all they sell, well his wife breeds/sells chams! they are great people, if you tell them about her, he will make sure to give you tiny ones.

When Krunch was suffering from his MBD, I covered the bottom of his cage with towels, so when he fell it was a soft landing. I scrunched them up, not flat

and maybe having some cover will help with the eating, just thinking out loud here, I know you have this well under control and you are thinking everything thru!

 

[Elizadolots]

It sounds like she's feeling better. I agree that you should put scrunched up towels on the floor of the cage and give her some climbing opportunities. She probably needs to exercise those muscles now that she's feeling better.

You might even try putting a couple of non-hobbled crickets in with her. She might enjoy a little hunt.

I really try to read everything you write, Riven. And I want to respond, all the time, but when you and ferritinmyshoes were going all med tech...I wasn't equipped to offer any insight.

 

[SonTigerPantherCham]

I agree E, I thought about the exercise and couple of crix to help her, but I didnt want to be pushy since I havent been a contributor on this thread

 

[Elizadolots]

If Riven didn't welcome pushy people she would have told me to take a hike on day one! Please get in here more because you have experience. I have "reading". I can be provide moral support and analogies, but what Riven needs most is people who've been through it.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Sorry, long rough day yesterday so I came home and just snuggled up in bed watching tv only half conscious for a good while and passed out pretty early or I would have responded sooner.

I have NaCl too, I didn't know if it would help her since she's been sick and has had a questionable amount of vitamins and nutrition.

The main components of NaCl and LRS are the sodium and chloride levels. They both have about the same amounts of those (LRS: 130mEq, NaCl: 154mEq) and they differ in their level of potassium (LRS: 4mEq, NaCl: none) and having lactate (none in NaCl). There are negligible amounts of magnesium and other ions in both, but they're nothing to shake a stick at. And LRS has just the teeniest bit of calcium in it, but it is nowhere near enough to make any contribution to your little one so don't be concerned by it. It would be my suggestion to use NaCl instead of LRS because too much lactate really makes animals feel like poo. And the electrolyte levels of both are basically equivalent. We substitute one for the other all the time (in stable patients) without worrying much about it. They don't have any nutrients (amino acids or proteins) or caloric value, just water and electrolytes. Bottom line is the content of those two fluids is practically the same for this situation and the subtraction of lactate may be beneficial.

Would it help to supplement her with Dyne? I didn't know if this would help her get her energy level up to the point where she would eat again on her own

I'm not familiar with that product. Do you have some handy so you could post the nutritional analysis off the container? It depends on how much protein, vitamin A, etc. that it contains to determine if it would be beneficial or not. What kind of critical care do you have for the chins?

With chins, if they go off food, you've got less than 48 hours, and that's pushing it for time as their digestive systems die if they're not constantly moving. I'm assuming since no one else was alarmed by her going off food, lizards can handle that better.

Rodents and rabbits do love their ileus. Lizards are definitely not the same way though so don't be worried about that. Perfectly healthy chams can go on hunger strikes for a month, and then they just pick up where they left off without any consequence. We do want her to eat to get the nutrition she needs to heal, but I won't be worried about lack of intake until it's been like a week, and only because she needs the nutrients, not because of gut stasis.

Sorry Elizadolots, lots of med speak. If it's too much and you'd like me to explain it differently let me know because it's one of the skills I'm always working on!

 

[laurie]

Awwww... Thank you Anne. Sometimes I forget to stop blabbering. She's so strong and fiesty. She gives me little hisses when she gets her shots. And she's starting to resist it a lot more. It's much harder to get a good quick injection when she's flailing around!

With chins, if they go off food, you've got less than 48 hours, and that's pushing it for time as their digestive systems die if they're not constantly moving. I'm assuming since no one else was alarmed by her going off food, lizards can handle that better.

I know she wants her fake vine so bad, that's her favorite thing to sit on, but I'm worried she's not ready yet, not enough hind leg control. I can spiral it and smoosh it down short I guess... she wants to be at the top of the cage so badly. I'm hoping that the increased "homey-ness" ( that is totally not a real word! ) will help her eat more, she seems like she really wants to, I'm not sure why she's holding back. She did not like the pheonix worms, but I do wish the butter worms were a bit smaller, I wonder if that's part of her hesitation.

So folks, stay tuned to the Pascal Pincushion channel for tomorrow's installment of Lunch with a Lizard...

I have a bunch of butter worms & i can sort out the small ones if you need them. Send me a pm with your address and how many you need.

 

[BocaJan]

I read you every day. I am comparing your results with how my Vinny responded to treatment. I loved my guy to death and even shed a few tears as he progressed throughout his treatment. I always kept his cage well padded and had lots of vines and plants as he was finally able to climb with his crooked little body. He did reach adult size and ate like crazy, so if he makes it through these trying times he has a chance to grow up even if he won't look quite normal.

I bet there are a lot of people that read your posts. If you have time take a picture from time to time too.

 

[Elizadolots]

Sorry Elizadolots, lots of med speak. If it's too much and you'd like me to explain it differently let me know because it's one of the skills I'm always working on!

Don't worry about me. Obviously, you and Riven are on the same wavelength and that's the important thing.

 

[Riven]

I've been picking out the smaller ones, I don't know if it's an issue, as she did eat a couple before, but I'm wondering if the size is intimidating to her?

She's still really dehydrated, this morning she skin stayed tented. She is feeling much better this morning because when I went in to check on her she watched me, then I went down to let the dogs out, and get her supplies, let the dogs in, and go back up and she saw me come in the second time and leaned over to the side of the plant like I wouldn't see her, lol.

She took about 1 mL of "soup" and about 1 mL of fluids this morning, so that was good, and while sitting on my hand ( I can't believe it didn't fall asleep ) she reallly, really thought about eating, her tongue came out almost a 1/2" and I thought she was going to go for it but didn't. I think she may be having troubles controlling her tongue yet... while she worked it in her mouth it tended to move to one side, but then should would do it straight. I also noticed while she did it her mouth looked kind of dry with stringy mucous, I didn't know if this was normal because usually they don't prepare like her, they just strike out. I didn't know if this was due to a mucous that helps their pray stick to their tongue? I honestly don't know HOW things stick when they eat, suction? Grip? I was also wondering if maybe she was purposely going to that side to help expel some mucous? I've been trying to encourage her to work her tongue to build of strength.

She watches me very closely, sometimes I wonder if she doesn't like me watching her try to eat, but I've left her alone and when I come back she hasn't eating any, and I don't know if she had tried obviously. If she's just sitting by the bugs, sometimes I'll work my mouth like she does, then she will do it too, lol. Yup, I'm a weirdo.

I upped her subq fluids a bit from yesterday since her body should a little less likely to go into shock from it after yesterday, I moved her drip over one of her leaves, making sure she couldn't climb up it again, oh she kept watching it...

I have class tonight and I may pick up some small crickets, I used what we had for soup, and they had gotten way too big of her. She likes the crickets and they have some prepackage type small ones I can hobble enough that they stay in the dish for her and see how that works. I've noticed if I get her some soup, she tends to want to eat on her own more. I don't know if it's the taste or just getting something into her belly.

 

[Elizadolots]

Hopefully you can get something soft in there so you can let her start climbing a bit. I'm sure that getting the soup stimulates her appetite. If it were possible to do the soup twice a day it might help. I don't know if that's possible, you're already devoting so much of your life to this.

 

[Riven]

She didn't want soup this evening but drank a lot of water, so I'll take that. She's still sitting at 24 grams, so I'll take that too. She watched the worms and worked her tongue.

I got some video of her "winding down" on the tongue movements, and some of her drinking. It's uploading to face book, so I'll probably link it tomorrow.

 

[Riven]

Dumb video doesn't want to load... obviously I'm not smart enough to run my smart phone...


Today we force feed her two worms, I don't know what else to do, her weight dropped back to 20 grams... once I got them in her mouth she seemed to enjoy them... I don't get it!

 

[lindawaz]

Probably wants them peeled like grapes too

You are doing so great with your Cham- no need to get anything follow your gut instinct it has proven success!

You and Pascal are rock stars!!

 

[absolutbill]

Riven - you are amazing for what you are doing for your little one! I just sat here and read through everything and am amazed at your dedication. I don't know if this will help as an alternative "soup", but I used this on my leopard geckos - please, someone with more experience chime in.

Blend:
1 sm. can Hills A/D dog food
1/4-1/3 c. Ensure
1 jar squash baby food
1/4-1/3 c. Pedialite
2 opened tablets of milk thistle
1 handful of mealworms

Pour this mix into ice cube trays, and just pull out a cube at a time to thaw and feed.

Again, I'm not a scientist, nor an expert by any means, but thought I'd share this. I don't know the effects of these ingredients on a cham, but since it's used on leopards, perhaps it can be of some help, or perhaps with some modifications. It's used on very ill leopards to give them nutrition. My thoughts are with you and little Pascal, I hope that this turns out to have a happy ending!

 

[Riven]

For crying out loud, don't give her any ideas or she WILL want me to peel them!

Here is finally the video of her mouth movements, there are a couple at the beginning, then you just as well jump to 1:30 unless you're bored, lol. Then there is some footage of her drinking water from the syringe as well.

http://youtu.be/0FTubyQmJls

 

[lindawaz]

for you then

video is private can't view it

 

[BocaJan]

I would think that the dog food has too much protein in it for a chameleon. Stick to bugs and worms, it is their natural food, not dog/cat food.