Veiled Fetus *photos*

Well the rest of the clutch hatched within the same week.
the other tubs were kept from the clutch were kept in the same incubator.
There were some problems with the incubation and the eggs might have been damaged, duds or didn't make the diapause window...
I lost one 2 weeks ago
the rest appear to be "good" but don't show much activity and appear mostly hallow.

I've got other eggs that are ready and awaiting a trigger for hatching
There may be a way to take a nice image of the shadowing on the eggshell from candling
to show everyone the floating young all curled up in there.
I'll see what I can do.

until then, I'm going to see if I can get a better idea by using a loop
and a stronger light source to get an idea of what's happening.
 
YOU KILLED A CHAMELEON JUST FOR A COUPLE OF PHOTOS THAT WE COULD HAVE SEEN IN BOOKS OR ON THE NET. how evil
 
AMAZING how most of these posters apparently did not even read your introduction, just skipped to the photos and were horrified. If they had read your post, they would have known why you did what you did, and it makes perfect sense to me. You don't want to put all that time, energy and electrical into 50+ eggs that are never going to hatch.

Thanks for sharing the photos.
 
I'm of the opinion that some people
have learned that jumping on the populist bandwagon
is the best way to score points in a public forum.

It may not be fair to say
but it seems that they tend to rest on emotional grounds
rather than "the big picture" reasoning when dealing for hundreds of eggs.

I think that everyone that is serious about raising these animals
has examined an egg or two, outside of a MRI there's really no other viable way.
 
Last edited:
Jeweledchameleons said:
I'm of the opinion that some people
have learned that jumping on the populist bandwagon
is the best way to score points in a public forum.

It may not be fair to say
but it seems that they tend to rest on emotional grounds
rather than "the big picture" reasoning when dealing for hundreds of eggs.

I think that everyone that is serious about raising these animals
has examined an egg or two, outside of a MRI there's really no other viable way.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have stated it any better Jeweled :) +1
 
Hutbug said:
AMAZING how most of these posters apparently did not even read your introduction, just skipped to the photos and were horrified. If they had read your post, they would have known why you did what you did, and it makes perfect sense to me. You don't want to put all that time, energy and electrical into 50+ eggs that are never going to hatch.

Thanks for sharing the photos.
Click to expand...
Someone correct if I'm wrong, but don't inviable eggs show obvious visual signs? I don't have the experience of hatching chameleon eggs, but from what I have read mold, deflation, and discoloration are common. If determining the viability of the egg was the only goal, was the method used in this thread ever necessary?




leela said:
YOU KILLED A CHAMELEON JUST FOR A COUPLE OF PHOTOS THAT WE COULD HAVE SEEN IN BOOKS OR ON THE NET. how evil
Click to expand...
leela, please don't use all caps.




Jeweledchameleons said:
I'm of the opinion that some people
have learned that jumping on the populist bandwagon
is the best way to score points in a public forum.
...
Click to expand...
I see you gained a few points ;)
 
lol yeah brad I caught the irony of it all :) :rolleyes:

Just to keep things on topic:
Last weekend I cut open a deflated, "hard", molded and discolored egg
I candled it and gave it a good old inspection with one of my friends
before we both agreed it was "dead and gone".

Only to find after opening it
a complete late state and seemingly healthy panther embryo
that I estimate having about 2 more months of growth before hatch.

I wasn't happy.

lesson learned: NEVER GIVE UP ON THEM.
You can't tell much at the later stages via candling
until they get their pigmentation and consumed most of the yoke sac.
you just have to wait it all out...
 
Jeweledchameleons said:
lol yeah brad I caught the irony of it all :) :rolleyes:

Just to keep things on topic:
Last weekend I cut open a deflated, "hard", molded and discolored egg
I candled it and gave it a good old inspection with one of my friends
before we both agreed it was "dead and gone".

Only to find after opening it
a complete late state and seemingly healthy panther embryo
that I estimate having about 2 more months of growth before hatch.

I wasn't happy.

lesson learned: NEVER GIVE UP ON THEM.
You can't tell much at the later stages via candling
until they get their pigmentation and consumed most of the yoke sac.
you just have to wait it all out...
Click to expand...

I completely agree... I don't believe this is the way to check the fertility of eggs. In your case, with the the molded discolored egg, I can't say that I wouldn't have cut it open, assuming that it was already gone. (most people just dispose of such eggs). But it was stated that their really is no better way to determine the fertility of your eggs, With which I totally disagree...... As I stated earlier in the thread... The best possible way is with patience. In the case of checking fertility there is no reason to risk loosing a healthy baby... Scientific study is different but should be done by the right people under the right circumstances.
 
respectfully

We both believed that the egg was dead.
I wanted to examine it to see how and get an idea possibly
as to why the incubation had "failed".

I wasn't going to chance retaining what by all accounts was a dead
and pathogen infected egg that would have provided a source of infection
to the rest of the "healthy eggs" within the incubator.
No way.

I know that it was fertile at one time and progressing
but believed it died while in the incubator
all the other eggs in the clutch were free from the signs this one showed.

I've changed my protocol for dealing with these situations
if it should ever rise again.
it is a learning experience after all.
 
Like I said, from your description I would have most likely done the same thing. Thanks for posting that because I now know that what appears to be a dead egg, may actually still be fine inside. I wonder how many healthy chams have been tossed in the past when the owner thought the egg had rotted. Everything tells you to get rid of the eggs asap... now I think I will get an extra incubator for when I have eggs... to put aside any moldy looking eggs from good looking ones to see if they might hatch also. By no means was I knocking your judgment. Thanks for sharing what you learned.
 
xoiceox said:
so u did kill him??? That is just plain cruel... I'm sorry but u don't see humans cutting their babies out for science... thats just horrible, i dont care how fascinating u think the pix could be. I am very upset with this
Click to expand...

It's called abortion.






But very fascinating. Sad that it died though, but it is really neat to see.
 
Honestly, I don't mean to jump in on this late but I want to put in my two cents. What did we learn from this that we couldn't have learned from looking up the information online? I understand that this was some sort of an "experiment" but as far as I can tell, nothing was really asertained other than that a baby chameleon will become sticky and then die an hour later after being exposed to air too soon.

Granted I did not see the disection photos, and I'm glad I didn't, but this guy is NOT a scientist and he just killed one of his own animals. I just think it is a little sickening. I have read all of the posts, I'm not just jumping on this after having read the first three posts. I'm not an animal rights activist like one of the girls who posted, but I love chameleons. If experimentation is being done to better the husbandry of chameleons by SCIENTISTS I am all for it. This was the killing of a baby chameleon to satisfy a curiousity.
 
Kat,

You can't just find the answers to any question by doing a google search. There has been almost no real exploration of development in chameleons. The original poster may not have been a formally trained scientist but the photos and exploration were beneficial. Just because it didn't spit out a concrete breakthrough that we didn't know before doesn't mean that it was useless or a waste. The questions it rose in my mind (and I'm sure others) are where the benefit lies because now those questions can be evolved into more controlled examination in the future. Scientific experiments are driven by curiosity and these frequently call for the sacrifice of the animal in question. Often the initial curiosity has little organized process of examination to test and answer concrete findings but the initial exploration provides enough information to foster stronger questions and thoughts on how it could be refined the next time to better answer a specific question. The photos did that for me and as I've said, I've put a few of these questions from these photos on my list of things I want to look into in the future.

Chris
 
Jeweledchameleons said:
I'm of the opinion that some people
have learned that jumping on the populist bandwagon
is the best way to score points in a public forum.

It may not be fair to say
but it seems that they tend to rest on emotional grounds
rather than "the big picture" reasoning when dealing for hundreds of eggs.

I think that everyone that is serious about raising these animals
has examined an egg or two, outside of a MRI there's really no other viable way.
Click to expand...


Bravo with this remark and to Chris's post right before me! For the people that have stated that this has been a waste to do what was done...well look at the now 118 posts on this topic? You call this a waste? I find it very interesting on seeing the pictures just to know or have a clue to what happens inside the egg and at what development the animal was in. The remarks afterward were interesting to read as well. I can understand if someone took a whole clutch of eggs and just ripped them apart but that was not the case here. The photos were put up as an informative look at what happened and nothing more.

You’re going to tell me that out of say 50 eggs that hatch in the wild all 50 will grow up as big as the cham that laid it? Try maybe 1-5 MAYBE after the others died while in the egg or were a meal for another animal. This is how life works and will never change. In captivity the chances that all 50 eggs have increased dramatically! I am not a breeder but I have to safely assume that anywhere’s from 30-40 eggs may all survive past 3 months after the animal is hatched.

Anyways to say this was a waste or that the person was wrong is your opinions but you can't argue that this 118 post discussion as been anything but a waste in my book.

Bravo to the level headedness of most of the posters on this topic!
 
Geckoxp said:
Bravo to the level headedness of most of the posters on this topic!
Click to expand...

Most? I think all of the replys were basically levelheaded. If one's opinion differs from another, that doesn't make them not level headed. My opinion remains the same, as will most everyone elses. I don't see a problem with that:D.
 
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