Veiled not eating in over a week
- Thread starter Santi4407
- Start date
Elizadolots
New Member
And, we look forward to reading that post! Please do keep us informed.
There are a lot of things that come into play regarding reproduction.
This is the way it should go normally (without controlling her diet strictly... and explained to the best of my ability and likely over-simplified)...
the female should grow up at a steady rate without being constantly overfed or underfed, with appropriate supplements, temperatures, lighting, well-fed/gutloaded insects. When she reaches sexual maturity she would start cycling and produce a clutch of infertile eggs (if not mated, of course) which would not normally be a problem as long as she has a suitable pace to lay them and does not see anyone watching her when she is digging. She would fill in the hole and return to the branches and continue on with life. If things were continued this way she would likely lay another clutch 4 or so months down the road.
If she things do not go "normally" (and this can include a variety of things such and improper supplementation, overfeeding constantly, reproductive system issues, etc.) and especially if she does not have a place to dig in her cage, then she could miss the egglaying time/due date holding the eggs in...or she might pass it simply by not have enough of her husbandry needs met sufficiently that she could go through the normal course of events. If she passes the "due date" then she might return to eating and seem like there is nothing wrong with her for a while....few days or so...but then suddenly go down hill to eggbinding.
There are several problems with her going past the "due date"....we don't know exactly when the hormones, etc. shift and she can't lay the eggs most of the time so its hard to know when she has reached the point where the oxytocin will work and when its too late for it. Once its too late for it there is only one option....surgery to remove the eggs/spaying her....but then at what point do you do this since you might not know when it needs to be done until she shows signs of going downhill...at which point her odds of survival start to rapidly decrease.
This is over-simplified and doesn't cover all the reasons or possibilities....but there is little to no way of knowing when the female actually begins being in trouble...we can only take our best guess from the experience we have had and from what we are told has led up to this point.
Hope this helps you see the dilemma?
This is the way it should go normally (without controlling her diet strictly... and explained to the best of my ability and likely over-simplified)...
the female should grow up at a steady rate without being constantly overfed or underfed, with appropriate supplements, temperatures, lighting, well-fed/gutloaded insects. When she reaches sexual maturity she would start cycling and produce a clutch of infertile eggs (if not mated, of course) which would not normally be a problem as long as she has a suitable pace to lay them and does not see anyone watching her when she is digging. She would fill in the hole and return to the branches and continue on with life. If things were continued this way she would likely lay another clutch 4 or so months down the road.
If she things do not go "normally" (and this can include a variety of things such and improper supplementation, overfeeding constantly, reproductive system issues, etc.) and especially if she does not have a place to dig in her cage, then she could miss the egglaying time/due date holding the eggs in...or she might pass it simply by not have enough of her husbandry needs met sufficiently that she could go through the normal course of events. If she passes the "due date" then she might return to eating and seem like there is nothing wrong with her for a while....few days or so...but then suddenly go down hill to eggbinding.
There are several problems with her going past the "due date"....we don't know exactly when the hormones, etc. shift and she can't lay the eggs most of the time so its hard to know when she has reached the point where the oxytocin will work and when its too late for it. Once its too late for it there is only one option....surgery to remove the eggs/spaying her....but then at what point do you do this since you might not know when it needs to be done until she shows signs of going downhill...at which point her odds of survival start to rapidly decrease.
This is over-simplified and doesn't cover all the reasons or possibilities....but there is little to no way of knowing when the female actually begins being in trouble...we can only take our best guess from the experience we have had and from what we are told has led up to this point.
Hope this helps you see the dilemma?
Santi4407
New Member
Very well explained kinyonga... Thank you... I just returned from te vet it wasn't the vet I hoped to bring her to but I was reffered there by the particular doc I had hoped to see.. He felt around her stomach and his determination was she does not hav a full clutch he said he only felt a few eggs.. He said he felt a lot of gass.. He said she looked healthy otherwise.. Any opinions? Should I take her somewhere else?
Santi4407
New Member
Just wanted to give an update.. I took her to another vet today... I really feel like the previous vet jus wasted my time and took my money.. It's soo unfortunate cuz today that feeling was proven. The vet today took xrays and my girl has about 50+ eggs aparently and her bones are begining to be compromized from the lack of calcium. He gave me liquid calcium and instructed me to give her 10 drops a day along with some natural sunlight. He also explained to me that she most likely will not be able to pass all her eggs. He said that laying will be an issue because not all the eggs are formed properly and equally. He also advised me to purchase a liquid based insect diet to get something she can pass through her system. It was very depressing to hear her chances of survival being low and I am very much saddened. I will try my best till the end for her and if anyone has any furthur advise I can use to cater to her needs it will be much of help!.. Thank you.... Tim
bridgofaith
Avid Member
Was surgery discussed at all? If the vet doesn't think she can pass the eggs, surgery is the only option left. Surgery is risky and she MAY not survive, but, if she is eggbound, she WILL die.
Santi4407
New Member
He did not suggest surgury at all. I'm guessing he has no experience with a procedure like that but also I feel as if he is not one to be optimistic of female veilds surviving coplications with their pregnancy at all. He seemed to believe all females greatly suffer n have hard times surviving after pregnancy. I guess his vetinary experiance with chams is limited the nurse told me she has only seen one other one brought there in the past. How long the past is I don't know. But the vet did said he has bred them before and kept them as pets and otherwise his information was very well put. I would love to give her the greatest chance but right now I'm not sure if I will have the means at hand to provide for surgury but he did ask me to call in a week. I assume we can discus this option then and I can deside where I will be able to go from there. I will deffinately try my best and exaust all my options to give her the best fighting chance I can.
Elizadolots
New Member
If surgery is needed they can probably arrange to let you pay in installments over time. It's not like you will have to lay out all that money at once.
I'm sorry the news is not so good, but I'm happy for her that she has you on her side.
I'm sorry the news is not so good, but I'm happy for her that she has you on her side.
Santi4407
New Member
Thank you elizadolots!.. I purchased flukers repta aid (liquid diet) at the vets request. That along with the liquid calcium has proven to be difficult to get her to take in ... Every attempt I make to open her mouth she sticks her tounge out and blocks the opening to her throat. I admit I am a little afraid of being to rough with her and maybe my way of doing it needs help. I am pulling on the skin under her mouth but can only get it open but so much. Any advice to get her to take this in?
Santi4407
New Member
Well tge ride has been bumpy for my nerves n for my girly.. I hve been force feeding her as much as i can and as she can take. As well as providing other forms of special care and keeping a close eye on her... It seemed she was gonna die any minute she was laying on her stomach and hving a hard time staying on the branches! But lateley she has seemed to gain some more streingth and now she is finally digging. I hope n pray all goes well and i kno there are chances it cant. The vet did say not all eggs were formed properly and that she did have an overly large clutch. My fingers are over crossed at this point. I hope she can pull through she is very much a fighter.
Santi4407
New Member
Another update.... Nateri finally finished her laying she was not particular on the spot or the bin she layed in. It was a one shot deal she went right down to the sand and got to digging. One hole was all it took and almost a day later she is done!! I haven't gone to see how many she layed yet haven really had the time. And before anything I want her to eat. She seems very dehydrated so I attempted to get her butterworms but all I got was waxworms and horned worms. She only has eaten 2 waxworms so far. I hope she can get it together!! On another note I know it is possible the eggs can be fertile. I have only had her for a couple of months and before that she was in an enclosure with another veiled. So I'm guessing it is a possibility. Only time will tell now..
Did she fill in the hole and return to the branches??
Its important to make sure she is well hydrated and fed well for a couple of days...but then you need to cut back on her eating enough to keep her from laying large clutches.
Its important IMHO to count the number of eggs she laid to see if you were overfeeding her or not. If there's a chance that they are fertile, then you need to dig them up soon if you want them to be incubated and set them up properly.
BTW I'm worried about her.
Its important to make sure she is well hydrated and fed well for a couple of days...but then you need to cut back on her eating enough to keep her from laying large clutches.
Its important IMHO to count the number of eggs she laid to see if you were overfeeding her or not. If there's a chance that they are fertile, then you need to dig them up soon if you want them to be incubated and set them up properly.
BTW I'm worried about her.
bridgofaith
Avid Member
This is excellent advice, I would listen to this. This does not mean she is out of danger. She may not have laid all the eggs, you might want another xray to check, especially since the vet felt she wouldn't be able to lay them all. Extra long warm mistings and some juicy feeders (silkies, hornworms) will help her.
chameleon884
Member
i thought chameleons could only go 2-4 days without eating?!?
Santi4407
New Member
I am still a little worried as well the eggs as well as my prior supplement schedule might have got to her a bit. Her back legs seem swolen and a little curved near the foot. The final count was 42 and after she filled in her hole she did return to the branches to rest n bask. I have taken procedure to put the fertile or infertile eggs in a container in a closet at room temp. But was only able to use the sand soil mixture as a bedding. Though I am not sure if my handling of the eggs was the best( I used a spoon as best as I could). The vet returned my call fm lass week today and I gave him the news an X-rays will be on the way. Just to add the vet did say the eggs were not all shaped the same but for the record all that came out are equal in size. I am aware though that there is a possibility of mishapen eggs to have been retained.
Santi4407
New Member
Also to add I will be as thorough as can be with feeding along with misting and getting her the calcium she needs. I do believe overfeeding was a point to learn in all this and I will cut back as soon as I see her doing well again. Thank you for your continued help and concern it has been of much help.
chameleon884...normally chameleons can go a few days without eating...but after laying eggs if they are okay they should be both hungry and thirsty. Its a lot of work producing/laying eggs and the volume of eggs should make the female feel full in the last few days before she lays them, so she might not eat or might not eat much. She has to make up for it when she's done the work!
It will be hard to incubate them on sand (they will likely dry out)....you would be better off to use vermiculite. You should be able to get it at a gardening store or maybe home depot or walmart.
Re: the vet saying the eggs were not all shaped the same and what you said about misshapen eggs...how did the vet determine that they were not all the same shape?? If there were misshaped ones there its hard to say if they would be the only ones retained or if they would cause a backup. I hope the x-rays show nothing there but follicles.
It will be hard to incubate them on sand (they will likely dry out)....you would be better off to use vermiculite. You should be able to get it at a gardening store or maybe home depot or walmart.
Re: the vet saying the eggs were not all shaped the same and what you said about misshapen eggs...how did the vet determine that they were not all the same shape?? If there were misshaped ones there its hard to say if they would be the only ones retained or if they would cause a backup. I hope the x-rays show nothing there but follicles.
Santi4407
New Member
I was aware of vermiculite but was not sure if I would be able to move the eggs more than once... The vet made his determination through an X-ray but he also counted over 70 eggs. But to be honest I was 50/50 about it to begin with cause when he counted in front of me, it seemed there was no way he would be able to count every egg. Some were clear to be seen but the rest was just seen as a big white blur so it was a bit confusing to see him come up with the number he did. Either way he is trained more than I and educated more so I can only wait for an X-ray to make any other determination.
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm glad to hear that she was able to lay. Hopefully it was all of them. Is she eating and drinking now? Right now she needs well gut loaded and heavy calcium dusted feeders unless you have liqiud calcium if you do that's best. I am glad that you are taking her back to the vet for a follow up xray. I hope all goes well.
