Very Lathargic Panther

[KShook]

Update...

hey everyone...

wow I totally fogot about this POST oops..anyways...I still have my freinds chameleon.."Jasmine" aka Jazzie he finally has given her to me since he does not want to care for her..He still has the Male though..which one day I hoping he'll ask if I want him to! Anyways...on Jazzie...Since he didnt want me to bring her to work with me to get her checked out..and now that she's MINE I'm bring her in this Tuesday to get her checked out! She's still eating and drinking SUPER well..In the mean time since I've had her I've been giving her a single drop of calcium orally a day, so hopefully this has helped her. BUT....on the down side..I've really been watching her every feeding...she's off with her tounge shooting...a crix will be right in front of her..and she'll miss it Poor Girl..But she does manage to get about a 100 crix with the exception of the few escapes...a week along with Superworms which I hand feed her and weekly showers just in case! She does still fall, some days more than others...but over all is doing okay...Aside from her balance issues, which leads to her falling...and her tounge shooting being off...But I'll keep you guys posted on how everything at the office go's! I'm quit excited to finally get her check out! Wish us Luck!

 

[KShook]

Updated Pics

Ohh Here's Some Newer Pics of her to!

 

[KShook]

Okayy...were off to the dr's!! Wish us luck!!! I'll give an update when I get back!

 

[Texas Panther Man]

So what was the vets diagnosis? We are waiting to hear about her. Shes def a very attractive female. I hope shes not egg bound because she sure looks
plump in those photos. Thats how my female ambanja looked right before she laid her first clutch.

 

[Red Island]

Sounds about average for a female.

 

[KShook]

Update

Heyy..Sorry I got home last last night and didnt get a chance to post!!

Anyways...She believes that she may have some type of Nervious System Problem...Hint the "Falling, off Balance, Tounge Aim is off" So we'll see...This is either something that CAN be cured with antibiotics "Baytril" or that CANT...depending on how bad she is "inside" of her..which we wont know untill she's on the Baytril for 2 weeks..which this will help with any Bacteria Infections that she may have and kill it off by that time. If she Improves with the Baytril we'll keep her on it for a total of 4 weeks...If not...We'll probably go with some Blood work or X-Rays to really see whats going on with her. But for now it's .01 of Baytril with Baby Pea food once a day for 2 weeks. Sooo Lets hope this works for her sake...if not..Bring on the Blood work and X-Rays and lets get her fixed alreadyyyy!!! Good thing I get Employee Discount at work! Or this would be SUUUUPPER Expensive!

Yeah I thought it may have been a calcium issue...but we'll see As for eggs...she's due anytime she's a year and a few months old and has not yet layed any eggs..I have a bin in there with her..but she's not showing any intrest in it. But any suggestions on what you guys may think is wrong with her..let me know! Or if you've ever brought a Cham into the Vet for these Issues...what was your out come?!

 

[kinyonga]

"Falling, off Balance, Tounge Aim is off"...these are usually signs of calcium issues. Its too bad that the vet didn't do xrays or some tests to determine the calcium levels. I hope she's not being treated with baytril for nothing. An x-ray should be able to show whether she's producing eggs too.

Good luck with her!

 

[KShook]

yeah...Thats what I thought to...But like I said before..she's not an Expert with "Chameleons" if the Baytril dosnt do anything for her over the next 2 weeks..She's gong back in..for some real work..blood work or x-rays...so we'll see..I always thought it might either be a calcium issue or MBD...but her bones and legs feel okay to me..but only an x-ray would determin that for sure...But if she does have any type of infection at least the Baytril will treat it.

But I have another week in a half with the Baytril...So I'll keep you guys updated as she go's in for each visit and what we do with her and what meds are given and what the diagnoses is..

Kinyonga: Have you ever had a Cham with a calcium issue that you've brought into the Vet before?? Or do you know of a good article that has info about Calcium Diffiencies and what it causes..and what may help as far as treatment wise..Let me know! I've done alot of research for this girl...and the only thinking that Matches her symptoms is MBD..

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I lost a male ambanja that had similar symptoms. He was a 2yr old cb breeder that i had. He started falling off his limbs. He was checked for mbd and calcium def. neg on both. My vet who was a cham breeder himself at that time suggested baytril also. It didnt work and eventually he was paralyzed from his rear legs back. It was if he were a paralysis victim. I kept him going for several months on hand feeding and water through a syringe. But i had to learn to help him defecate. I had to eventually put him down. If he hadn't had such strong will to live and been so good about being around people and being handled he would of passed much sooner. Good luck with the female I hope she pulls through.

 

[KShook]

Oh wow...sorry for your loss... Poor guy...did you raise him since he was a baby as well?? I dont really know of her care prior to me having her cause my friend didnt want to listen to me..What I do know..is that the UV lights he had were Crap..they were the Coil ones..which I told him to get rid of but he never did..when I went to check er out I brought himmy strip light..but I just ended up takinher anways..at least he'll get to use that for the male he still has...So I'm sure that had a HUGE part to do with her..and supplimenting have no idea..they just said they suppliment the crix everything they put them in the cage...Which was about once a week..He had NO humidity what so ever..just sprayed them occasionally..and no dripper to drink..so not sure if they just drank when he sprayed the cage? Who knows..but she was dehydrated when I got her...So who knows..those are they only things I know of that could be an issue..and thats how there care has been for a year....so hopefully she can pull through. Did your vet do any blood work or xrays?? Did he have any idea on what could have happend with your cham?!

I lost a male ambanja that had similar symptoms. He was a 2yr old cb breeder that i had. He started falling off his limbs. He was checked for mbd and calcium def. neg on both. My vet who was a cham breeder himself at that time suggested baytril also. It didnt work and eventually he was paralyzed from his rear legs back. It was if he were a paralysis victim. I kept him going for several months on hand feeding and water through a syringe. But i had to learn to help him defecate. I had to eventually put him down. If he hadn't had such strong will to live and been so good about being around people and being handled he would of passed much sooner. Good luck with the female I hope she pulls through.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Did x rays and fecals and blood work. I can't remember what the blood work was. But fecals and x-rays were all normal. I kept him and my female ambanja at that time in all screen enclosures with an eye barrier. I used 5.0 reptisun 48" bulbs. My cages were 6 x 2 x 2. With a 60 watt incandescent over each cage. These were the days before misting systems were affordable. so i hand misted 3 times daily, and i put all my chams in the shower at least once a week for 20-30 min. I supplemented with rep-cal and miner all every other day switching between the two. Also my chams got access to "real sun" in outside cages at least 1-2 times a week for 8 months a year. Texas is behind only cali and florida for good climate for chams.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Kinyonga: Have you ever had a Cham with a calcium issue that you've brought into the Vet before??"...not for many years. I have had other reptiles treated though...they were given calcium injections until the blood calcium levels were high enough to give them a shot of calcitonin which rapidly draws the calcium back into the bones.

I have had a few rescues though, that I treated myself. I gave them liquid calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate in addition to the regular dusting I did with all my chameleons. These were pretty damaged chameleons but they recovered well and went on to live almost as long as my healthy ones did.

Regarding bones...there's more to keeping them strong than just correcting the calcium levels...D3, vitamin A, phosphorous and calcium are all important players in bone health and need to be in balance. You need to look at the supplements, what you feed to the chameleon and what you feed to the insects. Appropriate temperatures, UVB exposure and even the water you use also play a part.

D3 and preformed vitamin A are antagonistic to each other...excess vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD. Excess D3 can also cause problems (read the articles below to find out how). Vitamin A from beta carotene (prOformed) sources won't build up in the system, but there is controversy as to whether any/all chameleons can convert it.

You said..."do you know of a good article that has info about Calcium Diffiencies and what it causes..and what may help as far as treatment wise..Let me know! I've done alot of research for this girl...and the only thinking that Matches her symptoms is MBD"...I explained some of this above...but here are some articles that you should read too (most of these I already posted in this thread)...
http://www.adcham.com/html/veterinar...es-kramer.html

For this one scan down to MBD....
http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp
"Excessive vitamin A supplementation may result in interference of vitamin D3 metabolism, leading to MBD."

http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102

She still didn't lay eggs??

Hope this helps!

 

[KShook]

Wow..crazzy..yeah chams are def. not an animal you can have and not do to much work..ha..i learned that quick when I first started!!

Did x rays and fecals and blood work. I can't remember what the blood work was. But fecals and x-rays were all normal. I kept him and my female ambanja at that time in all screen enclosures with an eye barrier. I used 5.0 reptisun 48" bulbs. My cages were 6 x 2 x 2. With a 60 watt incandescent over each cage. These were the days before misting systems were affordable. so i hand misted 3 times daily, and i put all my chams in the shower at least once a week for 20-30 min. I supplemented with rep-cal and miner all every other day switching between the two. Also my chams got access to "real sun" in outside cages at least 1-2 times a week for 8 months a year. Texas is behind only cali and florida for good climate for chams.

 

[KShook]

Kinyonga: Thanks for the Information overload! It's muchly needed here! I'll look over all the links you provided me and really study them!! As for the egg laying....Nothing what so ever...But do you think her symptoms the falling off balance, tounge aim is off..would you go with Calcium Defficency...or would you think it's a Nervious System issue like my Dr thinks it is!?

You said..."Kinyonga: Have you ever had a Cham with a calcium issue that you've brought into the Vet before??"...not for many years. I have had other reptiles treated though...they were given calcium injections until the blood calcium levels were high enough to give them a shot of calcitonin which rapidly draws the calcium back into the bones.

I have had a few rescues though, that I treated myself. I gave them liquid calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate in addition to the regular dusting I did with all my chameleons. These were pretty damaged chameleons but they recovered well and went on to live almost as long as my healthy ones did.

Regarding bones...there's more to keeping them strong than just correcting the calcium levels...D3, vitamin A, phosphorous and calcium are all important players in bone health and need to be in balance. You need to look at the supplements, what you feed to the chameleon and what you feed to the insects. Appropriate temperatures, UVB exposure and even the water you use also play a part.

D3 and preformed vitamin A are antagonistic to each other...excess vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD. Excess D3 can also cause problems (read the articles below to find out how). Vitamin A from beta carotene (prOformed) sources won't build up in the system, but there is controversy as to whether any/all chameleons can convert it.

You said..."do you know of a good article that has info about Calcium Diffiencies and what it causes..and what may help as far as treatment wise..Let me know! I've done alot of research for this girl...and the only thinking that Matches her symptoms is MBD"...I explained some of this above...but here are some articles that you should read too (most of these I already posted in this thread)...
http://www.adcham.com/html/veterinar...es-kramer.html

For this one scan down to MBD....
http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp
"Excessive vitamin A supplementation may result in interference of vitamin D3 metabolism, leading to MBD."

http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102

She still didn't lay eggs??

Hope this helps!

 

[kinyonga]

All I can say is that the tongue and falling can be signs of MBD...but I can't say that that's the only answer. The vet should be able to determine if its MBD through testing and x-rays. I don't know how he would determine that is neurological.

 

[KShook]

Hmm...No idea..I was hoping she would do xrays on her..but she wants to wait..so maybe in a week or so we can either do that first or blood work we'll see what she says...not sure how she came up with her neurological diagnosis...probably because she's off balance and falling over even when she's on a flat surface...but like I said before she hasnt work with many chams since she's been in practice...soo...yahhhh...that says enough..And I can also ask all the questions when ever cause shes also my Boss even better! lol but Yeah..for some reason out of all the research I've done myself..I've alwaysed believed it was MBD or some type of calcium issue...but we'll see what happens in the long run..

All I can say is that the tongue and falling can be signs of MBD...but I can't say that that's the only answer. The vet should be able to determine if its MBD through testing and x-rays. I don't know how he would determine that is neurological.

 

[KShook]

Okay...so it'll be a week tomorrow that my girl has been on .01cc of Baytril...I have NOT seen any improvements in her what so ever...But she's not worse either..So0o we'll see what this last week of Baytril does for her, if anything at all...I'm so ready for the next step to work of getting her better!

 

[KShook]

Need Everyone's Help!!!

Okay...Sorry for the "Repeat" on threads I've posted...Anyways my thread "Very Lathargec Cham..." for those of you who have followed me on that...I need some serious Advice, Help, Articles, Opinions, & Whatever Else is out there...I would like to give my Boss/Vet some articles on different topics that "MAY" be related to the issues my cham is having...which you can find that on my "Very Lathargec Cham..." Thread...This way she can review everything...and come up with a more accurate diagnosis with what she may have...As of right now she thinks my Cham has a Neurological Issue?? Which I dont think she has...Anything on Supplimentation, Lighting, Calcium Def. , MBD, Medicines that help with certain things,Ect...Send it my way...and your Opinions to!!! Everyone's Knowledge is def needed her!

Thanks so much for your help!!

 

[KShook]

Anyone....I know theres a Bunchh of people that have opinions and Knowlegde on this subject!!! Please Help..for the sake of my Cham so I can give the information to my Vet/Boss...

 

[sallyb]

I`m so sorry the cham is no better. I found the following article whilst researching recently to learn more about my chams issues. I found this really interesting and perhaps it will help. Good luck.


http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2005_V423.pdf