Vitamin A....it scares me

[CleanLineChameleons]

Haha...that is a loaded question. Well we know for sure that the animal will use preformed vitamin A, but it is also the type vitamin A that can reach toxic levels and end up killing an animal. Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin that is never excreted out of the body, so you may not see any adverse effects initially but it will build up and then it is too late. So...you be the judge. But the main thing is there are not enough studies showing that chameleons get a usable vitamin A from other sources, such as other feeder insects. To be honest there are so many factors that deal with vitamin A (ratios with other vitamins and minerals) paired with few true studies gives us very little information. So in my opinion I go with the people that have been doing it for years successfully. I am just using the Kammers for an example, they do not supplement with preformed vitamin A and they have been very successful, even getting into high generations still producing healthy offspring. I know other reputable breeders that have been doing it for year without preformed vitamin A but I don't want to throw their names out in the vitamin A mess if it hasn't been done before. So I am personally do not supplement with preformed A.

-chris

 

[lbesok]

So preformed Vit A is good or bad?

PREformed is the type that is already converted in to proven usable vit. A In a sense it is "bad" because it would be much easier to OD a chameleon with this type (the caps) of vit. A.

PROformed is the kind that the body controversially has to PROform an action to convert into usable vit. A.

So using the example Chris proposed above, roaches have the ability to transform the proformed A into a PROVEN usable vit. A for the chameleons.

In order for this synthesis to occur and to be beneficial to the chameleon what would you be gut loading the roaches, to provide the chameleons with the necessary amount of Vit. A through them?

My thought would be if you fed a lot of properly vit. A loaded roaches, you wouldn't have to worry about vit. A supplementation so much?!?!

 

[lbesok]

CleanLineChameleons;117721So I am personally do not supplement with preformed A. -chris

Chris, you confuse me lol. In your first post on this thread you say:

Me personally I give my full grown chams a drop from a gel cap once every other or every third month. But again that is my opinion and I have found to true solid evidence on this subject.

So does that mean when you supplement Vit. A every few months, it is from the gel cap derived from proformed beta carotene opposed to the preformed fish oil?

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Liz, I used to do the cod liver oil (preformed) once every two months. I believe in that quote I said "no" true solid facts. But the more and more I read and heard from breeders, I decided to go with the roaches. I personally feel that both roaches and supers can convert beta carotene (proformed) into usable vitamin A (no hard facts on the supers yet). The breeders that I have spoke to use both roaches and supers in their weekly feedings. Basically after a few months of dabbling in the preformed A, I decided against it. There were too many people doing too much without supplementing preformed A. So, I personally try to feed roaches once a week and supers once a week and hope my theory is right.

-chris

 

[Brian]

Liz, I used to do the cod liver oil (preformed) once every two months. I believe in that quote I said "no" true solid facts. But the more and more I read and heard from breeders, I decided to go with the roaches. I personally feel that both roaches and supers can convert beta carotene (proformed) into usable vitamin A (no hard facts on the supers yet). The breeders that I have spoke to use both roaches and supers in their weekly feedings. Basically after a few months of dabbling in the preformed A, I decided against it. There were too many people doing too much without supplementing preformed A. So, I personally try to feed roaches once a week and supers once a week and hope my theory is right.

-chris

Dang,I gave my chameleons Vit A today

 

[tryme]

I have a multi vit that has vit A do I need to add pre formed vit A or anything?

 

[Brian]

Ok, I know many breeders, other than the kammers, that have worked with chameleons for a long time not supplementing with preformed vitamin A. Some of these breeders are even getting into 7th generation offspring. There is no way that someone can argue with that. IMHO if you can get into 7th generation offspring still producing high fertility and hatch rates then you are doing something right...pretty much perfect. The quote above is the Kammers schedule, and the other breeders I know have very similar schedules. So, believe what you want to hear because everyone has an opinion, but very very few people have gotten 7 generations deep and still counting.

-chris

Chris, Is that schedule too much? I thought that was for gravid females? Well, thats what I doing for gravid females. I thought there schedule for a chameleon 6 months and up was:
Monday-insects with no supplementation
Tuesday-Repcal calcium with D3
Wednesday-No food
Thursday-Herptivite Multivitamin
Friday-No food
Saturday-Minerall O
Sunday- No food.

That what I've been giving...I thought that was there schedule.I do dust lightly.

Oh, and Preformed Vit A once every month. Im thinking about not giving them Vit A after all I heard its very confusing.

 

[kinyonga]

sepioteuthis said..."He also said he discussed this topic with a herp-experienced nutritionist who said that with humans the important part is the ratio of vitamins E, D3 and A. They should be 1:10:100. In other words you need 10 times more vit A then vit D. She thinks it may be very similar for lizards"...I have no doubt that one of the important things is the balance between the nutrients. Most cod liver oils seem to contain D3 and A in the ratio of 10:100...but do we know that the chameleon would not be getting too much D3 since it should already be making D3 from its exposure to UVB? Since A and D3 are antagonistic to one another if not in balance what does this mean??

You said..."BTW this wouldn't mean that you'd have to dust 10 times more with a multivitamin. Quite the contrary: Reptivite for instance contains 60 times more vit A than vit D3 and therefore they need very little of it to get enough vit A to last them for weeks"...I also understood this.

"What we're not sure of is whether chameleons can convert beta-carotene into vit A"...this is what I keep reading....but if they can't convert it then where do MY veileds get it from?? (They don't get fed roaches or any meat products such as pinkies.)

tryme said..."I have a multi vit that has vit A do I need to add pre formed vit A or anything?"...what is the source of the vitamin A in the multivitamin?

bucky...proformed vitamin A refers to beta carotene precursors to vitamin A, etc. that the chameleon must convert to vitamin A....so if the chameleon eats herbivorous insects it would get it from their guts (assuming that insects don't have any preformed vitamin A stored in their bodies from converting beta carotene...which I still don't believe...more on that later).

Preformed means just that...it has already been converted to vitamin A. The chameleon would get it if it ate a bloodsucking insect, a carnivorous insect, a pinkie mouse or any other food that already converted beta carotene into vitamin A or ate something that had already contained its own preformed vitamin A.

 

[Sepioteuthis]

sepioteuthis said..."He also said he discussed this topic with a herp-experienced nutritionist who said that with humans the important part is the ratio of vitamins E, D3 and A. They should be 1:10:100. In other words you need 10 times more vit A then vit D. She thinks it may be very similar for lizards"...I have no doubt that one of the important things is the balance between the nutrients. Most cod liver oils seem to contain D3 and A in the ratio of 10:100...but do we know that the chameleon would not be getting too much D3 since it should already be making D3 from its exposure to UVB?

According to this article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12695986 chameleons will regulate there UV-B exposure based on how much vit D3 is in their diet.
Quote from the abstract:
"Depending on dietary intake of vitamin D(3), chameleons adjusted their exposure time to UV-B irradiation as if regulating their endogenous production of this vital hormone. When dietary intake was low (1-3 IU/g), they exposed themselves to significantly more UV-producing light; when intake was high (9-129 IU/g), they exposed themselves to less. Vitamin D(3) photoregulation seems to be an important additional component of the function of basking."

Since A and D3 are antagonistic to one another if not in balance what does this mean??

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that too much of one damages the absorption of the other, than that just confirms the need for the two to be in balance. Let me know if I'm missing the point.

"What we're not sure of is whether chameleons can convert beta-carotene into vit A"...this is what I keep reading....but if they can't convert it then where do MY veileds get it from?? (They don't get fed roaches or any meat products such as pinkies.)

I don't know. If they can convert beta carotene then why do some people that provide it (in gutload or dusting) still get chams with signs of vit A deficiency?

A real study needs to be done, with a large clutch of hatchlings, half supplemented with preformed vit A and half with beta carotene.
I'm not, and probably won't be, in a position to do a study like this myself since I only work with melleri who aren't reliable reproducers. I'll be lucky enough if I ever get another clutch...

 

[sandrachameleon]

Beta

First off, anything anyone says about vit. A right now is subject to opinion. I have spoken to many people (vets and multiple breeders), many are strongly against supplementing vitamin A. I know many breeders that are very successful without using vitamin A.
[...]
I would love to hear from those who have had panther chameleons live for over 6 years and what sort of supplementation they were using.

-chris

My male nose be, Simon, lived to over 7 years. My oldest female was almost 6. I have bred successfully. My cham family is long lived, happy and healthy. I never provide pre-formed vitamin A directly. On rare occasion my roaches and crickets get some, because I occassionally include dog kibbles in the dry gut load I make. But thats not my normal practise. So not much of this pre-formed Vitamin A gets transferred to my chams. I believe that with enough beta-carotene available, the chameleon can manufacture its own vitamin A, just like us. So my wet gut-loads always include beta-carotene, through carrots, dandylion leaves, etc.

The best way to ensure your chams get the right nutrients is to provide the widest possible variety of insects, and ensure those insects eat well too. I use two types of roaches (which I breed myself and which are easy to gut load), butterworms, silkworms (which I give mulberry leaves rather than rehydrated chow whenever possible), crickets (gutloaded), wood sows (aka pill bugs - which I breed myself), moths, grasshoppers (only in summer -wild caught on an organic farm), meal worms (which I breed and gutload), king worms (which I breed and gutload), hornworms (purchased), stick insects (breed these myself and chams LOVE them), etc.

 

[bucky]

bucky...proformed vitamin A refers to beta carotene precursors to vitamin A, etc. that the chameleon must convert to vitamin A....so if the chameleon eats herbivorous insects it would get it from their guts (assuming that insects don't have any preformed vitamin A stored in their bodies from converting beta carotene...which I still don't believe...more on that later).

Preformed means just that...it has already been converted to vitamin A. The chameleon would get it if it ate a bloodsucking insect, a carnivorous insect, a pinkie mouse or any other food that already converted beta carotene into vitamin A or ate something that had already contained its own preformed vitamin A.

Thank you

 

[Chameleon Company]

Well, count me as one who is both a) of some experience breeding multi-generational CBB chameleons, and b) a proponent of Vitamin A supplementation. I see many comments here citing the "success of other breeders without it", but all examples cited are second-hand anecdotal if that. My experiences are not second hand. Some of the most respected vets in the business are also written proponents of supplementation with pre-formed vitamin A. That list would include veterinarians such as Stahl, Ferguson, and Alfonso, in some cases dating back to papers published in the late 90's. Recent input from Stahl and Alfonso have them still as advocates, and I've never communicated with Ferguson, only read his papers. Count me in the "recommend" column when it comes to real Vitamin A supplementation. Email me if you would like some notes I send out on the subject when requested. [email protected]. We also do not understand all the mechanisms by which chameleons get vitamin A in the wild. Good luck.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I think one thing that has to be considered is that you cannot draw conclusions from a small sampling. Most of our work, and that of the vets experienced in such, dealt with hundreds of animals. In such a sampling, Vitamin A deficiencies may only visually manifest or be otherwise detectable in 20% of the animals. Perhaps twice that many have a non-evident deficiency, but we do not know.

I do not believe Reptivite has any pre-formed Vitamin A. Herptivite has a very modest amount of retinal acetate, not much recommended as a preferred pre-formed source, and not enough in our experience.

If we, the chameleon breeding community, were so sure we had the answers, panther chameleons would be $40 a head by now. My experience with the truly experienced in this community is that they are the first to acknowledge how much they do not know. I am pretty ignorant sometimes.

 

[Chameleon Company]

My apologies to the Reptivite folks.

Just pulled the brands off the shelf. Reptivite has the acetate. Herptivite has nothing. While I applaud the Reptivite folks, I believe the quantity negligible. Better than nothing, but not enough.

 

[ChromaChameleons]

Thank you Jim... a point of view , backed by references is really refreshing and solid info. Good on ya...

Some posters have almost dismissed the roundtable discusion paper that has been posted in previous threads , regarding Vitamin A. I personally defer to experience, study , and real , ( not a friend of a friend), references.

And I too, am a proponent of Vitamin A supplementation , as I have personally seen the result . I just suggest that supplementing Vit A is not a casual practice , as it does come with risks if overdone.

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Just pulled the brands off the shelf. Reptivite has the acetate. Herptivite has nothing. While I applaud the Reptivite folks, I believe the quantity negligible. Better than nothing, but not enough.

I'm curious why you believe that the quantity is negligible. I've been using Reptivite 1 - 2 times per months for years at the recommendation of my vet, Dr. Stahl and I have never had any vit A issues.

Would you might elaborating?

thanks,
Suzanne

 

[Chameleon Company]

Suzanne,

First off, say "Hello" to Scott for me the next time you have occasion to be in his office .

I'm curious why you believe that the quantity is negligible. I've been using Reptivite 1 - 2 times per months for years at the recommendation of my vet, Dr. Stahl and I have never had any vit A issues.

Would you might elaborating?

"Elaborating ?" seems to be a bit open-ended. As noted in earlier posts here (CF's), and in other threads regarding Vitamin A, we have readily acknowledged that approximately 80% of all chameleons that do not knowingly get a direct vitamin A supplement do not show visual symptoms of Hypovitaminosis A. First elaboration would then be that your chameleon falls into this 80%.

Your chameleon is getting some pre-formed Vitamin A, albeit retinal acetate. I will quote an article by Scott written in 1996, where he cited work by Ferguson and de Vosjoli (1995) "F. and d.V. reports that 37.5 I.U. of Vitamin A given orally once weekly provides adequate levels of Vitamin A for the female C. pardalis." They all were working with retinal palmitate. Retinal acetate (synthetic) is rated to be about 40% as effective as palmitate.

Your Reptivite product contains approx 220,000 I.U.'s per KG, or 220 per gram, of retinal acetate. Were it palmitate, your chameleon, were it female, would have to consume about 1/6th of a gram weekly of the Reptivite powder to meet Scott's cited threshold. Since it is acetate, it would be approximately 1/3rd of a gram weekly. For an adult male it would be twice as much easily. I maintain to you that your animal is not getting anywhere near that much in the dustings. I would rate the actual amount your chameleon gets via dusting as negligible due to the product. I have yet to see an article of competence (not to be confused with postings in a forum) that used dusted vitamin A as the means of delivery, much less measuring delivery. Most used oral liquid, and some used injectable. The above math would be the basis of a second elaboration, addressing my conclusion of "negligible".

I believe that Scott recommends Reptivite as it is the only readily available product on the market with pre-formed Vitamin A in it. I would be interested to get his take on whether he feels any additional supplementation would likely be necessary. This third elaboration would explain Scott's recommendation of a product that I rate as "negligible" in its Vitamin A content.

Hope that covers it.

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Yes, that covers it. Thanks!
I was just curious because I recently had some melleri with eyeproblems and Dr. Stahl considered hypovitiminosis A highly unlikely because I supplement with reptivite (we later confirm this with the necro/histo of one of these melleri).

I'll give him your regards next time I see him and if he's not too busy I'll ask him about this too.

thanks again,
Suzanne

 

[Chameleon Company]

On a side note, a Scott Stahl story. He had come out to "examine the herd" years ago, and we were going over gutload. I make a paste, and refrigerate/freeze it. Anyway, after some discussion, he grabs a finger-full and swallows it. Then he said it was "OK".

Perhaps I was hasty in the use of the word "negligible" without explanation, and could have better put it as "potentially inadequate". As I said or alluded to, acetate is less usable than palmitate, and 1/3rd to 1/2 gram of powder is a considerable amount if you measure it out, and then start to figure in how much is actually still adhering to a cricket, or a dozen crickets, etc., if and when they are consumed.

It is our opinion that the best vitamin product ever on the market was a Tetra product, Reptisol, a liquid. It was carried for a while by all the major chains, and included retinal palmitate as an ingredient. While a fat (oil) soluble compound, it can be cut into water-based liquids with propylene glycol, glycerin, etc. Anyway, liquids are very unpopular with the average consumer, and Tetra discontinued it about 6-7 years ago.

 

[bucky]

Boy i wish SEAVS had an account on here Thanks for the info Cham company,now i know why Dr.Stahl reccomended the reptivite and its schedule.