Why is it a bad idea to get hatchlings?

[ChameleonClem]

why is it a bad idea to buy chameleons under three months? I keep hearing of how its a bad idea to get them so young but no one says why?
If they dont rely on their parents?
Is it a social need? I cant imagine chameleons needing socializing..
Is it a dont count your chickens before they hatch thing?

 

[FancyRaptor]

As far as I know it is because they are much harder to keep alive for inexperienced people. Breeders don't always know who they are selling to therefore they set the rules they sell by to cover everyone. They don't sell before three months because after that most beginners can keep them alive and healthy. People say not to buy them at this age because the risk of death is higher and additionally if a breeder is selling them at this age it is a sign of an irresponsible breeder.

 

[broderp]

I have to ask, why is this such a bad thing? What is the difference between a person who is familiar with basic husbandry and care getting a Cham at 2 months old vs. a breeder who raised them from and egg thru the day they sell them?

Health issues aside (assuming reputable breeders have a vet on call and have all their babies vet checked before selling) what harm can be done in having a younger Cham in it's final home earlier to get use to it's surroundings and owner? We all know that WC adult Chams may never get tame or shy away from people, but wouldn't the opposite be true as well? If all they ever know is you and are handled from day one by an owner, they would not be stressed out. Seems that would be one well adjusted Cham.

What am I missing?

@broderp Thank you for the plug hahaha!

I would assume right around the two month mark as well but as others said it is hard to tell as each baby will grow up differently. Some will be the leaders and some will grow up slower just like us as humans. It doesn't mean our parents didn't feed us or care for us, we just all grow up differently and at our own pace.

For reference, I like to wait till the 3-4 month mark as by that stage they are usually at the correct size for shipping and their new homes. I have let babies go younger (under 3 months) when someone is doing a local pickup and is 100% comfortable with them being younger. So that is most likely why you see at reptile shows the babies being younger because they don't have the overnight shipping to factor in and the customers can see the chameleon and make sure they are comfortable with one being a month or two younger.

I commented on this in another thread asking the same basic question. My take away was that they really require special care when so small in both feeding and husbandry.

 

[ChameleonClem]

As far as I know it is because they are much harder to keep alive for inexperienced people. Breeders don't always know who they are selling to therefore they set the rules they sell by to cover everyone. They don't sell before three months because after that most beginners can keep them alive and healthy. People say not to buy them at this age because the risk of death is higher and additionally if a breeder is selling them at this age it is a sign of an irresponsible breeder.

I see i can definitely understand the thought process. Though i figured if you got them young thats more time for them to get used to you, at a young age.

I commented on this in another thread asking the same basic question. My take away was that they really require special care when so small in both feeding and husbandry.

Yeah, although feeding wouldnt be hard to handle.. fancyraptor has a goodpoint about the mortality rate. Though, i think its the customers job to decide if they have the resources to care for them.

 

[Andee]

The problem is with it being the "customer's job" is a lot of people who have had chameleons before but not hatchlings think they can do it. It's another level of care in my opinion, even for the easier species. Also a lot of people who get the hatchlings are newbies and get them because they are cute. Hatchlings have very little wiggle room for mistakes.

 

[ChameleonClem]

The problem is with it being the "customer's job" is a lot of people who have had chameleons before but not hatchlings think they can do it. It's another level of care in my opinion, even for the easier species. Also a lot of people who get the hatchlings are newbies and get them because they are cute. Hatchlings have very little wiggle room for mistakes.

I agree, though i figured that was nothing researching couldnt help you decide if you're equipped.
And as for buying babies just because theyre cute, well i think we can all agree that would be irresponsible.

 

[jpowell86]

All of these are valid points. But one other angle as to why you shouldn't purchase an animal under three months is because mortality rates. What I mean by that is that a lot of chameleons sold are from gravid WC females. Sometimes, an egg can go full term, pip and hatch. But the neonate will just not make it after a certain length of development. I know that may sound strange, but I have seen it many many times.

A truly healthy baby will come from a healthy female that has given the eggs all that she can. Sometimes, the stress of import coupled with all the other crap they have to deal with yields issues that carry over to the hatchlings. I cannot give you the exact science behind this nor can I reference reading material on the subject. This just comes from what I have experienced and other keepers have experienced. This is not always the case as I have hatched out eggs from females that died right after laying. I have also hatched out eggs that I have removed from the ovaries manually after a female has died. But sometimes the babies just don't make it.

So, that three month mark is a nice length of time to know that the baby is doing well and will make it. Now, if the baby is from a reputable breeder and you know what you are doing.....I don't find getting one earlier is that big of a deal. There is not a huge amount of difference in care from the two month to three month mark. The only difference is usually prey size.

 

[Andee]

I agree, researching would be very important, but a lot of people don't do it until it's too late. And the sad thing is, it's the animal who dies in the end. What are breeders supposed to do when you say I am prepared and you realize you aren't and they baby they hatched ends up dying because they trusted you and sold it too young. There are also those breeders that I don't think realize the issue other people who aren't prepared way before have with raising hatchlings. A lot of hatchlings end up having issues with regular basking bulbs and uvb bulbs that would be fine for a 3-4 month old.

 

[ChameleonClem]

All of these are valid points. But one other angle as to why you shouldn't purchase an animal under three months is because mortality rates. What I mean by that is that a lot of chameleons sold are from gravid WC females. Sometimes, an egg can go full term, pip and hatch. But the neonate will just not make it after a certain length of development. I know that may sound strange, but I have seen it many many times.

A truly healthy baby will come from a healthy female that has given the eggs all that she can. Sometimes, the stress of import coupled with all the other crap they have to deal with yields issues that carry over to the hatchlings. I cannot give you the exact science behind this nor can I reference reading material on the subject. This just comes from what I have experienced and other keepers have experienced. This is not always the case as I have hatched out eggs from females that died right after laying. I have also hatched out eggs that I have removed from the ovaries manually after a female has died. But sometimes the babies just don't make it.

So, that three month mark is a nice length of time to know that the baby is doing well and will make it. Now, if the baby is from a reputable breeder and you know what you are doing.....I don't find getting one earlier is that big of a deal. There is not a huge amount of difference in care from the two month to three month mark. The only difference is usually prey size.

I agree, researching would be very important, but a lot of people don't do it until it's too late. And the sad thing is, it's the animal who dies in the end. What are breeders supposed to do when you say I am prepared and you realize you aren't and they baby they hatched ends up dying because they trusted you and sold it too young. There are also those breeders that I don't think realize the issue other people who aren't prepared way before have with raising hatchlings. A lot of hatchlings end up having issues with regular basking bulbs and uvb bulbs that would be fine for a 3-4 month old.

Both of you are right. but i still think most of these ishues can be solved with education, and backup plans. It seems blaming the breeder for the owners mistakes is unfair (not saying either of you are saying that) and as for the wild caught ishues, well thats a whole seperate thread, but its still a good point.

 

[Andee]

It depends on the situation. It can be either one's fault. It can also be no ones.

 

[jpowell86]

I keep hearing of how its a bad idea to get them so young but no one says why?

Both of you are right. but i still think most of these ishues can be solved with education, and backup plans. It seems blaming the breeder for the owners mistakes is unfair (not saying either of you are saying that) and as for the wild caught ishues, well thats a whole seperate thread, but its still a good point.

It's actually not a separate thread...you would be shocked at how many "CBB" babies are bought in this hobby that aren't.

I keep hearing of how its a bad idea to get them so young but no one says why?

THIS IS WHY!

 

[Andee]

Yes I agree with the getting lied to thing. I have gotten a blue tongue skink who was supposedly captive bred. Wasn't, they had pictures and a supposed hatch date. He had mites which blue tongues rarely get unless coming from the wild.

 

[kinyonga]

Jpowell86 told you the reason why hatchlings shouldn't be sold before they are 3months old....there is a mortality rate.

No amount of care can stop the hatchlings that are doomed because of that mortality rate from dying and nobody can really say which ones it's going to happen to. They can look perfectly healthy one day and die tomorrow. Add into this the fact that some people who produce hatchlings don't take proper care of the females so the rate of mortality in their clutches will be even higher and you may see why we say wait until they are 3 monts old.

 

[bobcochran]

To me the whole issue is the mortality rate difference before and after the 3 month mark. I have raised many babies that look just fine and then at 6 or8 weeks their vitality seems to decline inexplicably and they eventually die. Doesn't seem to happen near as often after the 3 month mark. It may have to do wth the genetic viability of each individual.
Kingyonga has it right, posted at the same time!

 

[ChameleonClem]

It's actually not a separate thread...you would be shocked at how many "CBB" babies are bought in this hobby that aren't.



THIS IS WHY!

I understand why now. I just meant that we could on go on for days about captive bred anything vs wild caught.
If thats what you want to share your opinion on, thats up to you.

 

[jajeanpierre]

why is it a bad idea to buy chameleons under three months? I keep hearing of how its a bad idea to get them so young but no one says why?
If they dont rely on their parents?
Is it a social need? I cant imagine chameleons needing socializing..
Is it a dont count your chickens before they hatch thing?

I think the biggest issue with hatchlings is their tiny size. Hatchlings are tiny and there is no room for error. An adult or sub adult has enough mass (and thicker skin) to be able to withstand periods of low humidity. There isn't that margin for error with hatchlings. Few people give enough humidity to their adults which can survive for years before the damage of low humidity/hydration shows itself.

Others have mentioned the viability of a clutch varies, even when hatched out by the same keeper.

I work with a horned species, and I've noticed that many keepers can't grow nice beautiful horns on the animals they have raised. Horn growth is an indicator of health, so uneven, bent or twisted horns indicate something was wrong at some point. Like hooves in horses, the growth rings tell a story.

There is no benefit to the final keeper to raising a tiny baby since they are not social. Tiny babies are much more reactive than older animals. An older animal is more likely to hold their ground and tolerate some human interaction while a tiny baby will just panic. There is a big difference in their response to fearful situations the bigger they get.

 

[ChameleonClem]

I think the biggest issue with hatchlings is their tiny size. Hatchlings are tiny and there is no room for error. An adult or sub adult has enough mass (and thicker skin) to be able to withstand periods of low humidity. There isn't that margin for error with hatchlings. Few people give enough humidity to their adults which can survive for years before the damage of low humidity/hydration shows itself.

Others have mentioned the viability of a clutch varies, even when hatched out by the same keeper.

I work with a horned species, and I've noticed that many keepers can't grow nice beautiful horns on the animals they have raised. Horn growth is an indicator of health, so uneven, bent or twisted horns indicate something was wrong at some point. Like hooves in horses, the growth rings tell a story.

There is no benefit to the final keeper to raising a tiny baby since they are not social. Tiny babies are much more reactive than older animals. An older animal is more likely to hold their ground and tolerate some human interaction while a tiny baby will just panic. There is a big difference in their response to fearful situations the bigger they get.

Great points! Do you or anyone else happen to know about how many inches long a 3ish month old cham should be?
Reason i ask is because the site i plan to order them from has small chameleons, seen here http://www.lllreptile.com/products/32649-small-veiled-chameleons and next size up would be medium chams which seem to be alot older than three months.
Thing is, ive ordered a small one before (not knowing about the issues about raising hatchlings) and it was a hatchling but it definitely was not five - six inches long
Id prefer to order from this site over anywhere else, i have extensively researched good places to get a cham and this was the best since we dont have reptile shows here.

 

[WAMBO]

Babies are fragile. Let a reputable breeder do the first 3 months to ensure good health. They have more resources, knowledge and experience.

 

[ChameleonClem]

Babies are fragile. Let a reputable breeder do the first 3 months to ensure good health. They have more resources, knowledge and experience.

i agree, i i feel pretty confident about getting an older cham now.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Great points! Do you or anyone else happen to know about how many inches long a 3ish month old cham should be?
Reason i ask is because the site i plan to order them from has small chameleons, seen here http://www.lllreptile.com/products/32649-small-veiled-chameleons and next size up would be medium chams which seem to be alot older than three months.
Thing is, ive ordered a small one before (not knowing about the issues about raising hatchlings) and it was a hatchling but it definitely was not five - six inches long
Id prefer to order from this site over anywhere else, i have extensively researched good places to get a cham and this was the best since we dont have reptile shows here.

I have absolutely no idea how long my babies are. At three months, my quads and graciliors are about 4g. That's the minimum I will ship them at and even then, I will grow them out longer if the person is a novice. I've found motivated novices to do better with my animals than experienced keepers, but they have to be motivated.

Good strong babies are tough. They aren't fragile, but, they are tiny and can dehydrate in a heart beat. That's what makes them tricky.