worrisome Fauna BOI

[Carlton]

Hopefully you know that I try very hard not to fan the flames on any public forum, but I saw this BOI thread yesterday and was concerned about it. Personally it really bothers me that a member of our cham community would display this attitude.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=530567

I will leave you to form your own opinions about such a situation. The last thing our hobby needs these days. Thought-provoking stuff.

 

[carol5208]

I am a member of this group on FB and saw the whole thing unfold. Not sure what to think but I know Jim was attacked with pitchforks and torches by an angry mob! Looks like Florida Fish and Wildlife is going to be paying him a visit. I am kinda on the fence about it being intentional or accidental.

 

[Devokid]

The practice described, essentially a chameleon open range ranch, is what lead to the issues in Hawaii. In order to cut down the Jackson population, they had to ban exports. Not sure what Florida is going to do, but I doubt it will be good news for people wanting to keep and breed their chameleons outdoors.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

I got a text on this issue with the link earlier this week. So I guess people might know where to hunt for panthers in FL..

 

[Montium]

I find it amusing at best that folks make statements like " Veiled's are wiping out native lizards " What native lizards might they be referring to? I hope it's not the Cuban brown anole as it's far from native and is itself wiping out the once native Carolina anole. People love to get all up in arms over the most ridiculous things. Comparing wild chams to pythons is idiotic. You will never see a twenty foot cham eating your family dog or your child. In my area there are quite a few agamas that have established themselves along with curly tailed lizards. Where is the outrage? why aren't people up in arms? mostly because they have no clue what they are talking about. The government has introduced all sorts of invasives for one reason or another and yet people aren't burning torches over it. " the ecosystem " learns to balance itself out; man is wiping out native species left and right because somebody wants a new housing development or a walmart and that's perfectly okay with most folks but heaven forbid a lizard that hasn't lived here for fifty years shows up.

 

[Montium]

The practice described, essentially a chameleon open range ranch, is what lead to the issues in Hawaii. In order to cut down the Jackson population, they had to ban exports. Not sure what Florida is going to do, but I doubt it will be good news for people wanting to keep and breed their chameleons outdoors.

Yeah Hawaii is crazy if they think they are going to remain isolated. There are plenty of non-native creatures living there, goats, donkeys, gekcos. I find it laughable that the big complaint about chams in Hawaii is they eat a tree snail and some " native " spider. Nothing is native to the Hawaiian island chain, it all came from somewhere else, including the people.

One final question about Hawaii, if they are so concerned about invasives why do they only put you through agricultural inspection ( twice ) when you are leaving? Sounds to me like they are more worried about something escaping Hawaii rather than things coming in.

 

[Carlton]

The government has introduced all sorts of invasives for one reason or another and yet people aren't burning torches over it.

Really? I suggest reviewing your history. The vast majority of intentional introductions were proven to be terrible ideas that caused more harm than good. No governmental agency (state or federal) I can think of would now introduce an alien species unless it was a last ditch effort to control an even more destructive one (such as introducing a bacteria, parasite, controllable insect, or virus to battle a crop pest or invasive plant). Yes, back in the "good ol' days" some state F&G departments thought it would be a good idea to bring in all sorts of exotic game birds or sport fish to please the hook and bullet crowd, but most either died out miserably or became competitive pests.

Whether chams pose a threat to FL wildlife or not remains to be seen. The problem is the attitude that it's acceptable to introduce nonnative species or allow them to colonize without considering the resulting harm. Whether it was intentional or not...I don't have enough information to judge.

 

[Devokid]

Yeah Hawaii is crazy if they think they are going to remain isolated. There are plenty of non-native creatures living there, goats, donkeys, gekcos. I find it laughable that the big complaint about chams in Hawaii is they eat a tree snail and some " native " spider. Nothing is native to the Hawaiian island chain, it all came from somewhere else, including the people.

One final question about Hawaii, if they are so concerned about invasives why do they only put you through agricultural inspection ( twice ) when you are leaving? Sounds to me like they are more worried about something escaping Hawaii rather than things coming in.

"Native" is a relative term. Many of the animals on Hawaii have evolved over millions of years and are only found there. Most people use the term "Native", in regards to Hawaii, as a description of an animal that got there without the aid of man. Furthermore, just because there are a bunch of introduced species, that doesn't mean that we should just give up and let anything in. For example, there are not any snakes in Hawaii, apart from a tiny ground guy. That is a pretty amazing considering the amount of ships, planes, submarines, etc. that come in everyday. That being said, Hawaii is way out in the middle of nowhere and it is fairly expensive to get there. Much much easier to control than Florida.

For agriculture, your checked bags are checked before they enter, but your are correct, they just trust people for their carry on bags. Hawaii is very concerned about animals leaving. They are mostly concerned with coral, fish, and other marine life, but transferring pests and nene geese are also not allowed. Chameleons are not very high up on their priority list.

 

[Devokid]

The government has introduced all sorts of invasives for one reason or another and yet people aren't burning torches over it. " the ecosystem " learns to balance itself out; man is wiping out native species left and right because somebody wants a new housing development or a walmart and that's perfectly okay with most folks but heaven forbid a lizard that hasn't lived here for fifty years shows up.

Hawaiians are still super upset about the introduction of the mongoose.
"The ecosystem" is in serious trouble all over the world.
People protest new housing developments and walmarts all the time. Walmarts have been blocked and parks created here, just FYI.

50 and 6000000000 are about the same.

Just because it has been bad, doesn't mean we can't change it, but we have to try.

 

[Carlton]

Yeah Hawaii is crazy if they think they are going to remain isolated. There are plenty of non-native creatures living there, goats, donkeys, gekcos. I find it laughable that the big complaint about chams in Hawaii is they eat a tree snail and some " native " spider. Nothing is native to the Hawaiian island chain, it all came from somewhere else, including the people.

You are incorrect!. HI certainly was colonized naturally ages ago, but now many of those founder organisms evolved into endemic (go look up the term if you don't understand it) species that are put at risk by invasive species including chams. They are now endangered or threatened with extinction because of:

a) habitat loss (development and habitat damage from invasive goats, pigs, donkeys, etc)
b) disease (avian malaria that was NOT present in HI until humans introduced it)
c) direct predation (yes, chams and other predators)
d) loss of pollinators (plants and their pollinators evolve together...lose one and you may lose the other)
e) competition.

Go read some of the dozens of endangered species recovery plans on file for HI's endemics and see if you still feel the same.

 

[Carlton]

"Native" is a relative term. Many of the animals on Hawaii have evolved over millions of years and are only found there. Most people use the term "Native", in regards to Hawaii, as a description of an animal that got there without the aid of man. Furthermore, just because there are a bunch of introduced species, that doesn't mean that we should just give up and let anything in. For example, there are not any snakes in Hawaii, apart from a tiny ground guy. That is a pretty amazing considering the amount of ships, planes, submarines, etc. that come in everyday. That being said, Hawaii is way out in the middle of nowhere and it is fairly expensive to get there. Much much easier to control than Florida.

For agriculture, your checked bags are checked before they enter, but your are correct, they just trust people for their carry on bags. Hawaii is very concerned about animals leaving. They are mostly concerned with coral, fish, and other marine life, but transferring pests and nene geese are also not allowed. Chameleons are not very high up on their priority list.

I thought the nonnative brown tree snake now occurred on some of the islands? They are a serious predator of native birds. Some of HI's endemic forest birds are close to extinction from predation, habitat loss and avian malaria.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

I thought the nonnative brown tree snake now occurred on some of the islands? They are a serious predator of native birds. Some of HI's endemic forest birds are close to extinction from predation, habitat loss and avian malaria.

Appearently the ferral chickens on the Islands did'nt get the memo on avian malaria. Too many chickens!!! At least the Tahitians/French eat them on their Islands.

 

[WilcoxAE]

Humans are just short-sighted greedy little a$$holes. This guy is a jerk. Period. Anyone defending him isn't stupid but probably ignorant of non-native species impact on even the smallest things such as insects and the domino effect that has.

Also, when stuff like this goes viral, you never know just who's who in the internet and whose ear they have. Not only is he going to get a few visits, but he's gonna screw up a lot of other innocent people but not before karma bitc*-slaps him.

Humanity is, what humanity does. And it goes both ways.

'just sayin', just sayin'!

 

[Lathis]

I saw that post as well. The laisse faire attitude about it by the owner bothers me.

Don't be the reason for the release of a nonnative species. Will chameleons grow unchecked and take over the world? No. Could they negatively impact the delicate balance of a unique ecosystem that is already stressed by invasive and aggressive nonnatives? Yes. It's about responsibility. I don't want to be critical, but I do believe a visit (and heafty fine since he was happy to make a full confession) by F&W is warranted in this case.

We had a similar conversation on CF a few years back about releasing unwanted hornworms where several members laughed it off or called me alarmist. Growing restrictions on reptiles, exotics, and insects are a direct outgrowth of incidents like these.

 

[Devokid]

I thought the nonnative brown tree snake now occurred on some of the islands? They are a serious predator of native birds. Some of HI's endemic forest birds are close to extinction from predation, habitat loss and avian malaria.

The brown tree snake is a major concern and Hawaii is fighting very hard to keep them out. This is difficult as it is my understanding that they can survive the flight on the landing gear. There most likely are a few, but as far as I know their population hasn't taken off. I have never seen one or evidence of one, but that doesn't mean that they are not there.

Hawaii really needs to do something about their cat problem. That is taking a HUGE toll. I know they are cute and the extermination of thousands of cats isn't something most people are excited about, but they are out of hand on most of the major islands.

 

[GCash]

Call Ralph(oldchamkeeper)

As stated before, this is the fodder that is used to justify legislation against our ability to responsibly keep reptiles. We all could suffer the consequences.

 

[jillencik]

I started the BOI. The proof is there that he is responsible for the wild population himself. The moment he realized there were animals escaping his facility, it went from being accidental to intentional.

That one man has the audacity to decide for close to 20 million people in Florida that there will be a panther chameleon population is extremely arrogant. Whether or not people consider them invasive is irrelevant. His actions are irresponsible and that is why I started the BOI and why I do not think people should do business with him at all.

There will always be animals escaping from his facility, and he is content with that...

 

[junglefries]

Anyone ever seen the damage from a group of released carp??? Just ask a bass fisherman.

What about the wholesale owner whose snakes (pythons, vipers, etc...) were released due to the hurricane in FL, years back? He has been accredited to a large percentage of the population. I believe he at least owned up responsibility for it.

Can't really weigh on the whole subject until it plays out (being an adult I refrain from facebook ).

 

[wildcrek]

I have a question concerning his practice, and please excuse me if this is a simple or idiotic question BUT:
This company has outdoor cages designed to let native insects in the cage for feeding, which in his words allows any cage hatched babies escape. Off the native/non-native population issue for a moment...
Wouldn't you be concerned with parasite infestations in your animals? You have no way to know what insects your guys are eating and would be a little reactive rather than proactive as to the knowledge of who is eating well and who is not which is one of the first signs of a distressed animal, isn't it?

 

[DeremensisBlue]

I have a question concerning his practice, and please excuse me if this is a simple or idiotic question BUT:
This company has outdoor cages designed to let native insects in the cage for feeding, which in his words allows any cage hatched babies escape. Off the native/non-native population issue for a moment...
Wouldn't you be concerned with parasite infestations in your animals? You have no way to know what insects your guys are eating and would be a little reactive rather than proactive as to the knowledge of who is eating well and who is not which is one of the first signs of a distressed animal, isn't it?

Keeping chameleons outside as has been done in the facility in question does increase the risk of getting parasites. Wild caught insects and even native lizard poop on the outside/inside of the enclosure are all possibilities for transporting parasites. But, the nutrition and variety those wild insects offer and the health from the natural sunlight give way more benefit than a light parasite load could take away. Chameleons have the advantage of being arboreal so the poop born parasites are generally far gone. In a large 6’+ outdoor enclosure you will not have much constant re-infestation of direct lifecycle parasites. Although it is best to be parasite free, chameleons can handle light loads of parasites just fine. The benefits of outdoor keeping with regards to health are significant.

We generally have a high priority on wiping out all parasites because when we keep them in relatively small cages (even a 4' tall cage) their food items have access to the poop and parasites can rapidly shoot to unnatural levels. Thus our vigilance for indoor keeping must be much higher than in outdoor keeping. (btw, this assumes that "outdoor keeping" is with a much larger cage area, not just moving your indoor cage outdoors.)

Bill