battle of the chameleons??!?!!?!

[lilbug]

obviously we think differently so i'll just end my argument by saying that comparing goats to chameleons isn't fair. goats are gregarious animals that live in groups. chameleons are generally not a community species. i'm not saying that male animals shouldn't be kept together, just the ones that have established themselves as solitary in nature.

Yes we disagree. I believe in leaving animals to be how they naturally are, i think its wrong to change them to what people think they should be. No chameleons do not live in groups but they still cross paths in the wild. And even solitary male species when they come across each other spar, its how they learn to fight and defend themselves so they are prepared when its time to breed and may have to fight for a female or if another male comes into their territory. I do realize that none of those are factors in captivity but there are many more reason that males spar. One being the change in hormones when they fight which makes better breeders, stronger males. Like i said i do research and I don't mean just online, I have zoologists that I know and talk to. People who have spent their lives learning all about animals.

 

[CamiGirl89]

I just always thought stress was a huge factor for chameleons. A female seeing a male can stress her into illness depending upon the situation. I would think that the stress level of two males meeting in a non natural setting would be similar... In the wild, they have large territories and are, of course, bound to meet up. Stray dogs spar as well, and so do horses, cats, chickens, etc. But does this make it ok for us to do this once we domesticate them? If your dogs beat up on each other, would you let it keep going until one got hurt? Just seems very cruel to me. We are responsible for the overall well-being of these animals. They are not to sate our need for entertainment, but more meant as companions and something to be respected. There is no territory in your front yard that they need to fight over.

 

[lilbug]

I just always thought stress was a huge factor for chameleons. A female seeing a male can stress her into illness depending upon the situation. I would think that the stress level of two males meeting in a non natural setting would be similar... In the wild, they have large territories and are, of course, bound to meet up. Stray dogs spar as well, and so do horses, cats, chickens, etc. But does this make it ok for us to do this once we domesticate them? If your dogs beat up on each other, would you let it keep going until one got hurt? Just seems very cruel to me. We are responsible for the overall well-being of these animals. They are not to sate our need for entertainment, but more meant as companions and something to be respected. There is no territory in your front yard that they need to fight over.

I have noticed with my chameleons that they rarely get stressed and she is in our living room and I run a day home. She could careless about whats going on, she just likes her plants. Reptiles don't really domesticate like a dog or cat, you can't train them or teach them like you do a dog.
Your right the yard is not territory, which is way that was just sparring not actual fighting.

Im ending my part to this conversation now, its just the same things be said over and over and it isn't getting anywhere. Everyone has the right to their opinions and no one should be attacked for them. No animals were harmed or being harmed so I think he should be left to raise his pets how he wants to.

 

[CamiGirl89]

I understand that reptiles are not like dogs or cats in the way they behave and in their intelligence. However, I just like treating all of my animals with respect, and in ways that will keep them the happiest and healthiest for the longest amount of time. It is your choice to do with your animals what you please, but my opinion is that rabble-rousing animals is never a good idea.

 

[chameleonboy1]

I just always thought stress was a huge factor for chameleons. A female seeing a male can stress her into illness depending upon the situation. I would think that the stress level of two males meeting in a non natural setting would be similar... In the wild, they have large territories and are, of course, bound to meet up. Stray dogs spar as well, and so do horses, cats, chickens, etc. But does this make it ok for us to do this once we domesticate them? If your dogs beat up on each other, would you let it keep going until one got hurt? Just seems very cruel to me. We are responsible for the overall well-being of these animals. They are not to sate our need for entertainment, but more meant as companions and something to be respected. There is no territory in your front yard that they need to fight over.[/QUOTE


well when i get a new dog like i did friday i let mine show whos got the territory i dont let them make each other bleed and actually hurt eachother but i let them fight for dominance and i dont disagree with either sides i do belive that it could benifet their pride and you know no matter what you are chameleon, dog, or human that males get testostorone and start fighting and humping everything they see so that sence of accomplishment is good but i do realize that if they have unneeded stress that that could be bad o their health i think that there is a happy medium to everything

 

[ChamBust]

You breed them? Id love some jacksons but I can't find them anywhere in canada and no one will ship across the border, it really sucks.

yes I do! I'm expecting some within the next couple months, and will definitely post since I'll be wanting to give them away. it's all about the experience

 

[ChamBust]

I just always thought stress was a huge factor for chameleons. A female seeing a male can stress her into illness depending upon the situation. I would think that the stress level of two males meeting in a non natural setting would be similar... In the wild, they have large territories and are, of course, bound to meet up. Stray dogs spar as well, and so do horses, cats, chickens, etc. But does this make it ok for us to do this once we domesticate them? If your dogs beat up on each other, would you let it keep going until one got hurt? Just seems very cruel to me. We are responsible for the overall well-being of these animals. They are not to sate our need for entertainment, but more meant as companions and something to be respected. There is no territory in your front yard that they need to fight over.[/QUOTE


well when i get a new dog like i did friday i let mine show whos got the territory i dont let them make each other bleed and actually hurt eachother but i let them fight for dominance and i dont disagree with either sides i do belive that it could benifet their pride and you know no matter what you are chameleon, dog, or human that males get testostorone and start fighting and humping everything they see so that sence of accomplishment is good but i do realize that if they have unneeded stress that that could be bad o their health i think that there is a happy medium to everything

i feel the exact same way w/my jacksons. let them have that sense of accomplishment and be prideful about something. they're obviously not all stressed out over the fight, otherwise they would have shown it.

if something like this really bothers u then i'm sorry but u really need to get a life

 

[lilbug]

yes I do! I'm expecting some within the next couple months, and will definitely post since I'll be wanting to give them away. it's all about the experience

Are you able to ship to canada? I would really like one.

 

[CamiGirl89]

i feel the exact same way w/my jacksons. let them have that sense of accomplishment and be prideful about something. they're obviously not all stressed out over the fight, otherwise they would have shown it.

if something like this really bothers u then i'm sorry but u really need to get a life

If something like this doesn't bother you, you really need to not have a chameleon

 

[Flapenn]

If something like this doesn't bother you, you really need to not have a chameleon

my thoughts as well...

You are either A)Ignorant or B)Naive

 

[AllFallDown]

I battle my Jacksons once in a while...closely monitored though, so it's mostly just a shoving match. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spYJvPCI1Vw

Alright, I just watched the video and thought I would jump in. I think this is a very interesting topic and definitely seems to push the envelope a bit.

ChamBust, when I first read your comment, I was a bit taken by it. My first thought was to the effect, "someone needs to call animal services on this guy, this is about 1 step removed from cock-fighting." I held off on commenting as I wanted to see how the conversation progressed. I read your justification and realized that there definitely seems to be some plausibility to your argument. I am not saying I agree or disagree with you, but I think you do have valid a point.

I do have some counters to your argument, however:

1) Just because something is their "natural behavior" does not mean it is beneficial to their health. Afterall, in nature many species do things like eating their young when food is short. Off the top of my head I cannot think of other examples but they do exist. Examples of behaviors which are necessary for survival or simply occur naturally, yet things I would not necessarily allow said species members to do in captivity. Human beings are a great example. In our natural habitat, we build bombs and blow each other up from time to time. If a superior intelligent being were to capture us and make pets out of us would it be a good idea for them to hand us nuclear warheads and tell us to go relieve some stress? I do not think that would be a good idea. (and before anyone objects, no I am not comparing humans and chameleons. I am attacking the argument that this activity is acceptable on the grounds that their behavior is natural by producing another example of natural behavior which would not be a good idea to encourage). Heck, sibbling get into fights from time to time, does that mean it is a good idea for spouses to have a fist fight from time to time?

2) The next question becomes- Given that this is a natural behavior in nature, is it actually beneficial to their health? Does it potentially harm them? That is, does it actually relieve stress? Does it cause stress? Will it extend their lives? Make them happier? I will not speculate on this, but will pose the question- Do you have any evidence that this activity is beneficial to them at all other than the fact that we see lizards fighting from time to time on Animal Planet? The heart of this is that just because something is natural, does not mean it is appropriate in captivity. Fighting over territory might play a very important role in nature for them as (I speculate) it encourages stronger members of the species to reproduce more by rewarding them with larger territories. This clearly does not apply in captivity (not normally at least), and I personally do not see any reason to assume there is benefit outside of evolutionary reasons (which are of benefit to the species as a whole, not necessarily to the particular individuals anyway).
There is also the question of what kind of tension/stress would this be relieving. Chameleons are not typically social animals so it does not seem clear to me that allowing them to engage in a dominance battle really does them any good. In particular, hypothetically, if one always wins and the other always loses- then it is just monitored bullying- how would any real benefit be assumed here?

3) "My two boys, Jax and Greemo having a highly supervised territorial shoving match (I separate them if they start biting). I've had them for almost a year and do this once in a while just to let 'em get out of their cage a bit"

This is the message that was posted under the video when I watched it. The way you stated "highly supervised territorial shoving match..." is very good. You have suggested that (from your perspective) this is meant to be a beneficial thing for their health and is not just a bunch of drunk frat boys who are bored lettin their lizards go at it.
What I would like to point out is that not everyone who has chameleons is mature about it. By posting a video like this online, you have portrayed fighting between chameleons in a positive light. Given where you stand on this, that seems to be a reasonable thing to do if you want to support your own cause. What I would caution is that not everyone who sees this video is going to think about it the same way you do. The question becomes- What role does this video end up playing in the promotion of responsible chameleon husbandry? Does it get across effectively and clearly the message you want it to?

Like I said, you have some very interesting ideas, I am not sure I buy them but there does seem to be some plausibility. I would encourage you to reexamine why you are doing this and whether it really is in fact beneficial to their health, and whether the risk of injury is really worth it.

[Edit]

"Like I said, you have some very interesting ideas, I am not sure I buy them..."

What I meant to say was: "Like I said, you have some very interesting ideas, I am not sure I buy them without solid evidence that it actually benefits them in some way and does not pose serious risk to their health..."

 

[Tweaked tC]

I dunno why, but I found it interesting to watch... As it has been pointed out its not really like they are fighting, but it's more like a sparing match.... However, I dont think I agree with this in captivity, unless there was hardcore evidence that this was benefical in anyway.... the entire time they locked horns I thought they were gonna hurt each other, but after watching it again, it seems like they know what they are doing(allowing enough distance between ones horn and the others head)... I wouldnt leave the video open the the public, just mainly for the simple fact there are a lot of young kids(or the before mentioned frat guys) that have chams from going to reptile shows, and the local pet store with their parents, and if they stumble across your video, they may see what else it can spar... At the least put a very, very long explanation about how its something that YOU do, and is NOT widely praticed, NOR recomended... might lighten the mood around here also.

 

[mikadoflyer]

i feel the exact same way w/my jacksons. let them have that sense of accomplishment and be prideful about something. they're obviously not all stressed out over the fight, otherwise they would have shown it.

if something like this really bothers u then i'm sorry but u really need to get a life

get a life? dude you're the one bored enough to let your chameleons fight, record it and then put it on youtube. i think you're just getting sour that your video rating is showing your bad taste in entertainment. you need to get a better life. oh let me add the

 

[SuperSambava72]

That is mean...they could really injure themselves.

 

[BocaJan]

yeah, i mean i'm standing right there when it happens...which has only been a few so far. but i just feel like they deserve to get out every once in a while, and once they're getting tired, i break them up and put them back.

Why would you do something that puts your chams in harms way? Are you a juvenile? It is our job to keep our animals safe. Battling our chameleons is not the adult thing to do any more then fighting our dogs. Stop it!

 

[JackP308]

these arent veileds or panthers they obviously arent trying to to bite one another, theres even a point where the ones leg/foot goes in the others mouth and he backs his head out a little and closes his mouth. 1:08 is where it happens in the vid, hes obviously not interested in causing any real damage

theyre also build for bouts like this. like veileds and panthers are all show and if someone dosnt back down the fights could get messy but the jacksons are just locking in and doing what comes natural. i think the fight would have been over in like 15 seconds from someone getting flipped off a branch, if it had taken place on a branch.

Yea they aren't panthers what's your point? Kind of missed it. You must never seen a jacksons bite or fight I guess. Ive seen one break a back as well. Maybe feed them to a larger animal its natural too. If your going for natural.

Kind of reminds me of the people who feed animals others just to make videos of it. Grant this guy is not getting ready to breed stimulate whatever. Purpose is for entertainment at their expense. I guess thats what keeping animals is for ? I work with mine and care for them I dont even consider them pets... Maybe my 2 yr old and your 2 yr old can beat each other up Ill video tape and we can you tube it.

 

[jsikes88]

Is there some kind of agency set up for chameleons? something on the lines of making sure people dont do stupid things with them... I would like to think they have more rights than an ant.
If not, maybe we should start one.

 

[Carlton]

Is there some kind of agency set up for chameleons? something on the lines of making sure people dont do stupid things with them... I would like to think they have more rights than an ant.
If not, maybe we should start one.

Be very very careful here! Misguided, unreasonable, and misinformed people create disasters like PETA and the HSUS. The problem is, any agency humans create is going to reflect the opinions and education of its members! The majority of people have no idea what is normal, acceptable, humane, or beneficial to a chameleon. Do any of us want to take that chance and lose our privilege to keep them because of an ignorant baby?

No one's going to win this one IMHO. Some of you regard a home video of 2 chams sparring the same way you'd watch an Animal Planet film of two wild chams sparring. Interesting and an observation of natural behavior. Others regard the video as evidence of abuse because someone exposed the two animals to risks without absolute need.

It all comes down to individual opinion and interpretation! Remember, two chams can "fight" just by changing their coloration and body posture. If one does not take the hint and back off, the next level of competition is the sparring match. Consider that a cham owner could give their males some sense of victory simply by removing the "loser" from the color battle.EVery time we stress our chams by invading their spaces, handling them, etc. we put them at SOME controlled risk. How much is acceptable?

And, BTW, all creatures have the same rights...ant and cham. The rights we all state so passionately have more to do with what humans feel is right or wrong. The animal may feel completely differently. They are competitive because survival is their top concern.

 

[JackJack]

Be very very careful here! Misguided, unreasonable, and misinformed people create disasters like PETA and the HSUS. The problem is, any agency humans create is going to reflect the opinions and education of its members! The majority of people have no idea what is normal, acceptable, humane, or beneficial to a chameleon. Do any of us want to take that chance and lose our privilege to keep them because of an ignorant baby?

No one's going to win this one IMHO. Some of you regard a home video of 2 chams sparring the same way you'd watch an Animal Planet film of two wild chams sparring. Interesting and an observation of natural behavior. Others regard the video as evidence of abuse because someone exposed the two animals to risks without absolute need.

It all comes down to individual opinion and interpretation! Remember, two chams can "fight" just by changing their coloration and body posture. If one does not take the hint and back off, the next level of competition is the sparring match. Consider that a cham owner could give their males some sense of victory simply by removing the "loser" from the color battle.EVery time we stress our chams by invading their spaces, handling them, etc. we put them at SOME controlled risk. How much is acceptable?

And, BTW, all creatures have the same rights...ant and cham. The rights we all state so passionately have more to do with what humans feel is right or wrong. The animal may feel completely differently. They are competitive because survival is their top concern.

Very, very well said. We all keep animals in cages, and though there are many justifications, some more legitimate than others, jumping to conclusions that include regulation of what some think is proper or right is a very slippery slope, because again......we all keep animals in cages.

 

[italian chameleon]

Can't one of them get hurt by the horns? They came awfully close to the eyes, I would never do this myself.

agree! by the time the guy stops filming and drops the camera one cham could have lost an eye! closely monitored c'mon...

and it's also not natural at all because in the wild they would have fought on a branch with the loser either running away or falling down...

sorry to say that but that video should be removed from the forums (not to mention youtube) as it sets a very bad example for any inexperienced keeper who may see it and think that fighting chameleons is ok and kinda cool.

P.s it's funny how everyone has suddenly become a chameleon psychologist...

Pps @ chameleonboy1: beat up the kids and steal their chams