Breeding true bloodlines
- Thread starter Chameleoco
- Start date
Syn
Avid Member
I don't believe you are getting my point. 
All I'm trying to say is that there is no way anyone can guarantee that their chameleon is 100% this and 100% that.
However, if you are saying we are the problem.. you can't stop everyone from doing what some people on here thinks is so bad and wrong.
All I'm trying to say is that there is no way anyone can guarantee that their chameleon is 100% this and 100% that.
However, if you are saying we are the problem.. you can't stop everyone from doing what some people on here thinks is so bad and wrong.
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Yes, you are right, Syn. But you can also minimize the risk
TreelionsUK
New Member
I don't believe you are getting my point.
All I'm trying to say is that there is no way anyone can guarantee that their chameleon is 100% this and 100% that.
However, if you are saying we are the problem.. you can't stop everyone from doing what some people on here thinks is so bad and wrong.
Thats not what im saying,im saying that crossing would have been caused buy humans trekking with a chameleon from the westside specifc animal and letting it go on the eastside.
Thats what i ment the "problem" was
TreelionsUK
New Member
eisentrauti
Avid Member
And I Trioceros and Bradypodions
philanddeb818
Established Member
Laurie,
It is a bit scary, but you said what was in my mind, almost word for word. I think i will wait for you to post before I do, it will save me a lot of thinking!! All it takes is a good Montana woman to set the record straight.
Makes me think of words like tolerance, acceptance, and politeness. Those qualities shouldn't change wether we are face to face or staring into a monitor.
I am not referring to anyone's post on this thread saying that you are intolerant, or not accepting, or not polite. Please don't take it personal.
This thread has really made me think about the issue of crosses verses pures, and that in itself made it worth reading for me.
Nick
God bless you Laurie & Nick! I was embarrassed reading this thread thinking, "when are they going to answer the original question (Thank's Jo - you actually shed light on the question for our new member).
I think we're all passionate about our animals just as the original poster is (sorry I didn't take note of your name). We might keep in mind that our new member is to be appreciated not treated unfairly.
WELCOME!
Sending a welcom pm now!
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Chameleoco,
I think a lot of people's opinions on here about this are very primitive. The chameleon hobby has been around, let's say, 50 years. That's REALLY not that long at all.
Let's look at people's opinions throughout history on breeding different 'locales'
of humans. 200 years ago how many black and white people did you see
'mixing'? Now, it is commonplace.
People have a purist attitude about everything, but when you take animals
into captivity, you negate any ideology that they should remain pure,
what benefit does it have to them?
There will always be left wing and right wing. Some people will keep breeding
strictly pure locales, some will mix. What is the problem??? Why is this thread
5 pages long? It's not that big of a deal. As long as there are opposing
parties in politics, there will be opposing parties in everything.
What does that mean for you? It means you'll always have pure bloodlines
and mixed bloodlines available.
In the wild, they do mix. That's how there got to be so many different
colors. Look at some of the mixes that chameleonsonly.com has done,
they are absolutely magnificent and I wouldn't think twice about buying one.
The animals don't care. Only people care. Doing what's best for the animal
is actually mixing, it creates a more diverse and thus healthy gene pool.
My dog is a mix, but dogs are acceptable as mixes because they've been
around for 10s of thousands of years. If we took wolves from the wild right now,
you can bet that people would be saying 'don't mix them!! keep them pure!
cull all the offspring and start over!!'
Bollocks.
In another 50 years, we'll see magnificent crosses and people will be a bit
more relaxed about all this mixing business.
And yeah some will be ugly, but hey even true locales can be ugly,
I've seen some really ugly Ambilobes, Nosy Bes, Sambavas, well just about every
morph. Even veileds, look at them. They are all essentially one locale,
but some are ugly and some are nice.
Chameleoco, do what you want. The only responsibility you have is to make
sure the chameleons go into homes where the person has done research
and your chameleons will be taken care of properly.
Enjoy the hobby in your own way. That's what a hobby is.
I think a lot of people's opinions on here about this are very primitive. The chameleon hobby has been around, let's say, 50 years. That's REALLY not that long at all.
Let's look at people's opinions throughout history on breeding different 'locales'
of humans. 200 years ago how many black and white people did you see
'mixing'? Now, it is commonplace.
People have a purist attitude about everything, but when you take animals
into captivity, you negate any ideology that they should remain pure,
what benefit does it have to them?
There will always be left wing and right wing. Some people will keep breeding
strictly pure locales, some will mix. What is the problem??? Why is this thread
5 pages long? It's not that big of a deal. As long as there are opposing
parties in politics, there will be opposing parties in everything.
What does that mean for you? It means you'll always have pure bloodlines
and mixed bloodlines available.
In the wild, they do mix. That's how there got to be so many different
colors. Look at some of the mixes that chameleonsonly.com has done,
they are absolutely magnificent and I wouldn't think twice about buying one.
The animals don't care. Only people care. Doing what's best for the animal
is actually mixing, it creates a more diverse and thus healthy gene pool.
My dog is a mix, but dogs are acceptable as mixes because they've been
around for 10s of thousands of years. If we took wolves from the wild right now,
you can bet that people would be saying 'don't mix them!! keep them pure!
cull all the offspring and start over!!'
Bollocks.
In another 50 years, we'll see magnificent crosses and people will be a bit
more relaxed about all this mixing business.
And yeah some will be ugly, but hey even true locales can be ugly,
I've seen some really ugly Ambilobes, Nosy Bes, Sambavas, well just about every
morph. Even veileds, look at them. They are all essentially one locale,
but some are ugly and some are nice.
Chameleoco, do what you want. The only responsibility you have is to make
sure the chameleons go into homes where the person has done research
and your chameleons will be taken care of properly.
Enjoy the hobby in your own way. That's what a hobby is.
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Yeah and maybe if everything goes on this way we don't have any pure bloodlines...
Espacially because the political system in Madagascar is very "dynamic" we should care for pure bloodlines cause we could never know what if the future brings still many pure WC ones
Espacially because the political system in Madagascar is very "dynamic" we should care for pure bloodlines cause we could never know what if the future brings still many pure WC ones
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
People like me. not everyone keep females for breeding. I've had several kept purely because I like chameleons, including females. Also, I have nothing against hybrids that are sold to me as such. One of my favourite chameleons is a beautiful cross.
To get back to the true purpose of the thread
It could perhaps be the "pure" bred ones are genetically inferior sterility wise, as is happening with champion pure bred dogs. But I think its far more likely that you've just got bad luck. Can the females see the males at time other than during introductions for breeding?
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Not serious
I think your next sentence is the solution of the problem, he has just had bad luck
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Quite serious. But yes as I stated, I think it far more likely that the "problem" is something else, it could even just be bad timing.
eisentrauti
Avid Member
It's a giant difference between a seperated population which leads into an extra local and high breed pets
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Precisely, a thousands of years type of difference.
This is what I'm talking about. Mankind thinks on a very small and limited scale,
however righteous some people think it is to breed by locale, it's pointless.
There is the argument that if they go extinct, we can reintroduce them.
But we took the fittest, strongest, most beautiful animals in the first place,
and when we DO reintroduce them when that time actually comes,
they will have thousands of years again to re-establish themselves.
There is the argument that we need to keep pure bloodlines so people
aren't in need of importing wild caught specimens anymore.
If you REALLY cared, we would have imported a hundred or more ONCE
thirty years ago and put them into breeding facilities to get them established
in captivity first. Importing these days is based on money and greed.
There is the argument that people won't know what they're breeding.
The majority of people don't care. They want something that is beautiful,
and again this is based on money and greed, as people think mixed locales
are not worth as much as pure locales.
Are there any other arguments to keeping bloodlines pure?
Panther chameleons are only in the hobby because they are so beautiful,
don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise. People have made their sole income
from breeding these beautiful creatures. It's their vibrant beauty that
gets people interested in them.
So if you can influence making a beautiful mixed morph, then you're just
doing exactly what you should.
This is what I'm talking about. Mankind thinks on a very small and limited scale,
however righteous some people think it is to breed by locale, it's pointless.
There is the argument that if they go extinct, we can reintroduce them.
But we took the fittest, strongest, most beautiful animals in the first place,
and when we DO reintroduce them when that time actually comes,
they will have thousands of years again to re-establish themselves.
There is the argument that we need to keep pure bloodlines so people
aren't in need of importing wild caught specimens anymore.
If you REALLY cared, we would have imported a hundred or more ONCE
thirty years ago and put them into breeding facilities to get them established
in captivity first. Importing these days is based on money and greed.
There is the argument that people won't know what they're breeding.
The majority of people don't care. They want something that is beautiful,
and again this is based on money and greed, as people think mixed locales
are not worth as much as pure locales.
Are there any other arguments to keeping bloodlines pure?
Panther chameleons are only in the hobby because they are so beautiful,
don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise. People have made their sole income
from breeding these beautiful creatures. It's their vibrant beauty that
gets people interested in them.
So if you can influence making a beautiful mixed morph, then you're just
doing exactly what you should.
Chameleonator
New Member
Two words that pops into my head everytime this subject is hit upon with cross breeders...
Hypocritical & Perpetuation
Both of you have stated that your crosses aren't meant for breeding.
When both of you have perpetuated the cross breeding even more so!
Wouldn't it be hypocritical to do something and not allow another person to do it also? If you've done it, why is it not OK for another person to do the same?
Your either for it or against it. You can't preach... "Do as I say and not as I do!"
Hypocritical & Perpetuation
Both of you have stated that your crosses aren't meant for breeding.
When both of you have perpetuated the cross breeding even more so!
Wouldn't it be hypocritical to do something and not allow another person to do it also? If you've done it, why is it not OK for another person to do the same?
Your either for it or against it. You can't preach... "Do as I say and not as I do!"
i'm not gonna express myself on the ethics of cross breeding, despite being a pure line breeder,but i have a female nosy be that refused to mate with two different bloodlines nosy be male.
on the other hand,she displayed receptive coloration when shown to another of my breeder, a 2 yo ambilobe male, and eventually lets the male grab her.
i thought there was a reaction to colour,as she would turn salmon pink even in front a red ambanja male.
any thought on this?
on the other hand,she displayed receptive coloration when shown to another of my breeder, a 2 yo ambilobe male, and eventually lets the male grab her.
i thought there was a reaction to colour,as she would turn salmon pink even in front a red ambanja male.
any thought on this?
ChromaChameleons
New Member
ChromaChameleons
New Member
jojackson
New Member
Yes actually, though its the vaguest concept, It could be the threadstarters 'crossed' animals are having a species/locality recognition issue (maybe they look odd to each other too) patterning/color not being recognised/matching their instinctive image of another of the same species, translating into less inclination to go through mating protocols, aka reception or non reception displays etc and therefore actually being more willing to mate with available pairings than the 'originals'.
Though If I was asked to put money on it, Id say my initial ideas are more likely than this. Chameleons seem to be rather complex when it comes to visual communication/breeding, than more 'physical' species who use arm waving, headbobbing, pushups etc though perhaps some chameleon species do these things also?
