Chameleon on it's side, bottom of cage

[mjlabadia]

O.K.,
I've seen some other posts like this,....but here goes.

My wife has a chameleon in my home office. He's about 6 months old.

About 10 minutes ago I got up suddenly from some work at my desk, and heard a loud hiss from his cage,......I went over to check on him,....he slowly, staggeringly fell fell over and slipped from the branch he was perched on.

His mouth was open in what looked like pain. He fell about 4 inches to the bottom. His tail is wrapped around a lower branch. He seems to slip in and out of consciousness,....awakening when I come near the cage.

He his coloring is rather light compared to normal, but with some black areas, especially around the junction of his veil with his head.

He does puff up when I approach, and he attempts to move or get up, but doesn't seem able to.

He is not accustomed to me handling him, as my wife usually interfaces with him.

I think she made a mistake by having the bottom of the cage covered in that "reptile bark".

The cage is apprx. 2.5 feet cubed.

He just went through a shedding process, it is complete.

I attempted to help him up but he has a pretty strong grip on a lower branch with his tail and one foot.

I don't want to stress him any further with my handling him. Furthermore,...if he is near death, I don't want him to feel fear I might be some predator. What do I do?

 

[carol5208]

I would just leave him be for a little while and see how he does. If he fell 4 inches it is highly unlikely that he was injured from that short of a fall. They can fall 4 feet and way higher up than that and not get injured. He might have gotten spooked at something and that caused him to fall. If he just fell for nothing, then there might be something else wrong with him.

 

[jcarlsen]

O.K.,
I've seen some other posts like this,....but here goes.

My wife has a chameleon in my home office. He's about 6 months old.

About 10 minutes ago I got up suddenly from some work at my desk, and heard a loud hiss from his cage,......I went over to check on him,....he slowly, staggeringly fell fell over and slipped from the branch he was perched on.

His mouth was open in what looked like pain. He fell about 4 inches to the bottom. His tail is wrapped around a lower branch. He seems to slip in and out of consciousness,....awakening when I come near the cage.

He his coloring is rather light compared to normal, but with some black areas, especially around the junction of his veil with his head.

He does puff up when I approach, and he attempts to move or get up, but doesn't seem able to.

He is not accustomed to me handling him, as my wife usually interfaces with him.

I think she made a mistake by having the bottom of the cage covered in that "reptile bark".

The cage is apprx. 2.5 feet cubed.

He just went through a shedding process, it is complete.

I attempted to help him up but he has a pretty strong grip on a lower branch with his tail and one foot.

I don't want to stress him any further with my handling him. Furthermore,...if he is near death, I don't want him to feel fear I might be some predator. What do I do?

Sorry to hear that. I know it's frightening with these little guys. My 4.5 month panther occasionally will puff if he's on the bottom and I approach too fast. I've only had the little dude for just 2 weeks, so he's getting used to me still. I noticed the first time I successfully got him on my hand, he tried to lay his body flat, sideways against my hand so as to avoid me. Could be your little guy isn't injured, but trying to make himself look as small as possible.

My little guy also rotates sideways on his branches if he's skittish around me. Could be that your guy didn't have a choice but to lie down to avoid you.

Also, I wouldn't let the fall worry you. My little dude fell from about 3 feet last week, and he's fine.

 

[mjlabadia]

He Doesn't seem physically able to get up. He tries but can't seem to get upright. His eyes closed for awhile, and I thought he had died. He is "awake" now, but is still on his side, and doesn't seem to be able to get himself up.

It has been awhile now, and he is just lying there.

The cage is three-sides glass, front side screened.

He is not looking good now. Kind of curled up, with a little hunching spasm taking place.

Should I just shut the lamp and let him pass quietly?

 

[Trace]

While I agree with some here, in general falls aren’t a problem for a chameleon. However what you are describing (loss of consciousness/sleeping light/pale colours, black areas) could be indicators of a much bigger problem.

Fill out our How To Ask For Help Form and we can perhaps assist you better.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

Pictures are helpful

 

[Scout]

Best of luck to you and your Cham. Sorry you had to witness that :/.... That will dampen anyone's day..

 

[mjlabadia]

Chameleon- Veiled, Male about 6 months.

Handling- Michele, about once every two days.

Feeding- I think she feeds him 12 crickets every two days. Plus some yellow "worm-like" creatures.

Supplements- Calcium, I don't know how often she is doing this.

Watering- Drips from above, onto the fake plants. Yes I've personally seen him drink.

Fecal- I've only seen this once, seemed to have a lot of mucous along with the load.

History- Unfortunately, I just happen to share a work-space with him. It is my wife's, and I sort of just visit with him to say hello from time to time.
My wife isn't here, and I just want to do something to help him.

Cage- 2.5 ft / 2.5 ft / 2.5 ft Glass on three sides. Screened on top/screened on front door. Full front face is screened door, except for 3 inches at bottom.

Temp- I can only tell you current parameters. 90 degrees on an analog dial type thermometer at bottom of cage. Humidity only 50%. I don't believe she was informed as to how critical humidity and temp is. No efforts to maintain humidity, that I know of.
However I did attempt to spray him and the cage from time to time. I had a "feeling" about it.

Plants- PLASTIC!! with real wood vines and a piece of a tree? I will try to take a picture.

Placement- In a very quiet home office space. When I'm working in here, I am about 8 feet away from him. The cage is on a support, with the top about 5.5 feet off the floor. No fans, but from time to time when it got above 85 in here, I would open a window. Usually just as warm outside.

Location- I am in Windham, N.Y. Northern Catskill mountains.

Current Problem- He looks like he is dying. As I mentioned, a loud hiss came from the cage, it caught my attention. I looked just in time to see him slowly lose his grip, and fall with his jaws open in pain.

After an hour to see if he could recover, and frantically searching the internet for answers, I tried to assist him on to a branch.

He can't hold on, he is just hunched over a branch, dangling face down. Holding on with his tail, maybe rear legs, but just supported by his chest now. Forelegs not doing anything.

He's not doing well guys. His eyes are open, and looking around, mostly at me.

I will try to get a picture to you. I think a reptile vet is in order. I haven't told my wife yet because she is on the road and dealing with a minor catastrophe with our kids at the moment.

I'll be back with a picture if I can. I'm sorry for the long post.

I feel terrible about this. Michele has been very distracted lately,...I should have learned more about this little guy and helped out.

 

[mjlabadia]

Here are some photos of him. I'm sorry for the quality.
I am using laptop. I was here working home office.

I'm a Radio Engineer, currently working an contract with South Korea.

Man, he is not moving except for his eyes.

 

[mjlabadia]

He died guys.

That was quick. What the heck happened? He was fine this morning when I came in to start work.

Not that I was all that attentive today. But WHAAAA HAAAAPPENED?

I watched him literally keel over and within an hour and a half die!!

This is terrible. My poor wife is going to be devastated.

I wish I had some answers to give her.

 

[jannb]

He died guys.

That was quick. What the heck happened? He was fine this morning when I came in to start work.

Not that I was all that attentive today. But WHAAAA HAAAAPPENED?

I watched him literally keel over and within an hour and a half die!!

This is terrible. My poor wife is going to be devastated.

I wish I had some answers to give her.

I am so sorry for you loss. An autopsy might give you some answers.

 

[carol5208]

You said 6 months old but how long in your care? You did not mention any kind of lighting...UVB? UVA(basking)? Calcium is super important especially when they are young and their bones are developing. Kinda need to know how often she was dusting the feeders. He could have had MBD. Are you sure "he" was indeed a he?. If it was a she, it is possible she could have had eggs. If females do not have a proper place to lay, they can become eggbound and die. There are a lot of possibilities here on what could be the cause. I forgot to say I am sorry that he passed away.

 

[mjlabadia]

Thanks Jann, and everyone else. I have been searching this forum for similar circumstances. I have a little more info,..,Michele says he refused to drink last night and this morning.
She has opted out of the autopsy option. When she gets back, we are going to have a little service/burial in the back yard.

We are a many pet family, and are accustomed to an occasional loss.
4 rabbits, 2 cats, a leopard gecko, and up until today our cham.

Michele brought the leopard gecko back from the brink. Big fat tail now. He even knows her voice. The minute he hears her he is out from under his little shelter/rock/pond thing and trying to get her attention by standing up against the glass of his cage.
He doesn't stop until he gets 15 or 20 minutes under her shirt. I could just picture him saying,...."Hey baaaaaby,....how about a little lllllloooooove!!"

So,...thank you all for your help.

Jamie

 

[jannb]

It would be a good idea to at least fill out the Ask For Help Form and post a few pictures of your Cham. That way we can see if anything might could have been off in the way that you kept him that could have caused him to fall and then pass. It would also be helpful for you incase you ever get another chameleon. One againe I am very sorry that you lost him.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

 

[Carlton]

He died guys.

That was quick. What the heck happened? He was fine this morning when I came in to start work.

Not that I was all that attentive today. But WHAAAA HAAAAPPENED?

I watched him literally keel over and within an hour and a half die!!

This is terrible. My poor wife is going to be devastated.

I wish I had some answers to give her.

I'm sure he didn't just die that quickly. Chams are experts at hiding health problems until they are literally at death's door. It's instinctive to not show any sign of weakness just in case there's a predator waiting to take advantage of it. He probably had a growing problem for some time. The odd dark color patches, his sudden fall, the gaping, and overall inability to hold himself up are all signs that he was dying unfortunately. Again, as Jan said, without knowing the details of his care (diet, lighting, watering, humidity levels, supplements, etc) we wouldn't be able to help figure it out.

 

[GCash]

Sorry to hear of his passing. 90 degrees at the bottom of the cage seems a little high especially with as little plant cover to escape the heat and thermoregulate. If this wasn't the cause, it could have at least sped up his metabolism and hurried along any metabolic issues that were lying in wait. As others have said before, please fill out the "how to ask for help" questionnaire and you'll have a better chance of getting to the bottom of what caused it.

 

[mjlabadia]

Hi again,
I did post some pictures and info earlier in the thread.

Michele gave me some further info,....

She has been gut loading the crickets she was feeding him. With something called "Gut Load".

He would get a dozen crickets every 2nd day.

In between he would get Meal Worms and Wax Worms as treats. (Hand fed out of a bowl).

About a week ago she noticed he wasn't eating as much.

Then yesterday and today he wouldn't drink any water. She would drip it down the fake plant. He would usually go right for it, but not during the past 24 hours.

He actually was 10 months old, he was four months we got him.

Basking light was a Zilla 75 watt Daylight White bulb.

We had a Zilla Night Black Heat bulb, also 75 watts. However, I do not see ANYTHING about UVB spectrum on either of these bulbs.

This may be the it. Neither of us new about the Ultra Violet necessity for the processing of calcium.

Kind of sad, because I'm an engineer specializing in electromagnetic radiation, and well aware of its necessity in humans.

Another potential problem was the substrate. It was that nasty chipped wood that it seems so many of us have made the mistake of using.

On a personal note,..we buried him in the back yard. I made a little marker out of wood and burned his name,..."Big Guy",.....into the cross piece.

Poor Michele,....knowing that she could of prevented this with the proper study makes it that much harder. She really did love him.

We kind of dropped the ball on educating ourselves about these guys.
I really can't blame the pet store. They don't have time to fully study all of the fine points for multiple species.
That was our responsibility.

 

[jannb]

Do you have any better clearer photos of just your chameleon, so that I can see if it looks like he had MBD? Another question. Did he have little bumps called spurs on both heels of his back feet? All males have them. It almost sounds like you had an egg bound female.

This is how I have has good success raising young veileds and panthers.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html

 

[mjlabadia]

You know Jann, I don't recall any spurs. However, There was something coming out near his vent, during all of this.
It looked like a little "flesh hook". It also looked like there could have been the presence of another one on the other side, but it wasn't extended.

Never appeared until this event. Like a little pointy curved worm sticking out of one side of the vent.

The owner of the pet store told us it was a male, based on what he was told by the breeder,...but hey, he could have been mistaken.

He was kind of moody like how males have been described to us.

That little flesh hook is a puzzle though. It almost looked like one side of "mating graspers"??

 

[Carlton]

You know Jann, I don't recall any spurs. However, There was something coming out near his vent, during all of this.
It looked like a little "flesh hook". It also looked like there could have been the presence of another one on the other side, but it wasn't extended.

Never appeared until this event. Like a little pointy curved worm sticking out of one side of the vent.

The owner of the pet store told us it was a male, based on what he was told by the breeder,...but hey, he could have been mistaken.

He was kind of moody like how males have been described to us.

That little flesh hook is a puzzle though. It almost looked like one side of "mating graspers"??

Though the pics aren't very clear, this looks like a male. What you saw might have been his hemipenes showing. His casque looks too large for a female, and the body doesn't look fat enough to have been a gravid female. Both males and females can be equally "moody".

So this Zilla blacklight was on at night? Chams need at least a 10 degree drop in temp at night and NO visible light showing. They have full color vision and visible light and too warm temps keep them from resting properly.

 

[mjlabadia]

Yes, I'm sorry guys, pictures were taken in haste with my work computer.

Yes that Black Heat Light was on at night.

In hindsight, he would like to climb up to the very top corner of the cage when resting. Almost as if he was escaping the radiational heating from that Night Light.

Could he have had a blockage? He seemed to be in pain during the final event.

Michele said he wouldn't even drink water the past 24 hours.

I'm going to study as much as I can about this.

I'm not sure she's ready to try again. At least not until we can educate ourselves as well as we did with the rabbits.