Chams as a business

[Norcal55]

You can make a few bucks when breeding Chameleons but it will soon turn into a lot of work with a large time commitment.

It will take time when starting out. If you start with breeding age adults you are still looking at about a year before you are able to start selling the babies.

Your feeders will add up quick, I feed 5,000 - 15,000 crickets a month depending if I have babies or not. I'm on a breeder program and still spend 120 -175 a months on crickets per month. This does not include the superworms, Hornworms, silks and fruit fly cultures that I make.

As for just feed them Dubia haha I wish! I have had a massive Dubia colony for years and have only had a handful of Chams who really like them.

I have 4 adult male breeders and 5 females currently and if I expanded any further it would feel like work and take the fun hobby aspect out of it.

This year for example I had about 90 babies and had no problem selling them. Any profit I made has gone back into the hobby in the form of new equipment and other Chameleons that I thought would fit good into my breeding projects.

If someone is just in it for the money it is just not worth it at all in my opinion, you could spend your time and resources in other areas to make money.

With all of that being said I absolutely love breeding Chameleons! I would encourage anyone to give it a try at least once

 

[sking21]

Between welfare and expense, I'll say I am a little different when it comes to the pet hobby. Welfare wise I cut no corners in care and my pets get proper supplements and feedings. Expense wise, I didn't want to tell my personal business over the forums but I am getting a nice sum of money I can allocate to this venture as kind of self reward for what I been through

 

[sking21]

With all of that being said I absolutely love breeding Chameleons! I would encourage anyone to give it a try at least once [/QUOTE]

That sound like a good number I was thinking nosey be I may keep my veileds I have now. Maybe a MIT pair, and grow out my ambi pair I have now. And the passion here never fades, I think that's a good thing though. Push comes to shove if the worse situation happen ill just make a room into a free roam I'll be happy with that, whole rain forest theme. Chameleons are just a part of it all and surprisenly one of the easier ideas of a species to work with.

 

[Ladynyce]

With all of that being said I absolutely love breeding Chameleons! I would encourage anyone to give it a try at least once

That sound like a good number I was thinking nosey be I may keep my veileds I have now. Maybe a MIT pair, and grow out my ambi pair I have now. And the passion here never fades, I think that's a good thing though. Push comes to shove if the worse situation happen ill just make a room into a free roam I'll be happy with that, whole rain forest theme. Chameleons are just a part of it all and surprisenly one of the easier ideas of a species to work with.[/QUOTE]
I am sorry if I came across wrong I was speaking on my behave like I said in my first post. Like I said before I have NELLERS, the large species of the chameleon family. So I was just giving up a heads up on the cost that would come along with breeding. I am NOT saying don't do it, but all I am saying is know what your doing. I wish u all the best and I hope you have healthy happy chameleons. When my time is right I know I will do the same But I personally know thw money isn't right for myself as of yet spending $25 weekly on hornworms silkworms, cricketsetc.... to be honest I have to take care of the crickets more so the cham! LOL sounds crazy but they arenthe chams intake so they need to be keep and feed accordingly! WISH U LUCK HUN ....maybe I can buy one from you one day :-D

 

[sking21]

Please don't worry about me I'm the least the get offended that's just a part of the "different". You all have valid points I need to weigh on. I chose this forum because of the sensitivity of chams. I keep a variety of pets and is subscribed to many different forums. I figure ill get the best advice here, in every pet related forum any business related take on our "hobby" is frowned upon. This isn't considered a supplementary income for me(I know hyporcrical of the ideal business). When I browsed(I dare not ask) the ball python forum I seen talks of building breeding stock of snakes that cost 3,000 each that take 3 years to mature and a year to get it right and a chance they never do.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Between welfare and expense, I'll say I am a little different when it comes to the pet hobby. Welfare wise I cut no corners in care and my pets get proper supplements and feedings...

good. But that means you are highly unlikely to break even.
good welfare means at least 5 types of prey (not just dubia), vet check-ups (not just waiting until something goes obviously wrong), good gutload (not just feeding the prey), new lamps every 6 months, large cages for adults, many cages for babies (not housed together), heat, electricity, plants, laying substrate replaced regularly, a plan for the runts that should not be sold, etc.

but here are some links you may find useful:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/olimpia/522-average-cost-owning-chameleon.html
Some Thoughts On Breeding
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleo.../breeding.html
[Incubator] Is this right..?
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs...aying-bin.html
Breeding Advice
https://www.chameleonforums.com/final...ing-now-15125/
eggs
https://www.chameleonforums.com/eggs-...se-help-14441/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/vermi...x-ratio-10772/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/reall...egarding-9166/
in need of advice
https://www.chameleonforums.com/hatch...ugh-side-4740/
Veiled Eggs Help
https://www.chameleonforums.com/your-...ding-age-5251/
Breeding Panthers
Breeding panthers
https://www.chameleonforums.com/i-bred-my-female-10299/
Babies Update!!!
http://chameleonnews.com/05OctDescampsFrancis.html
http://chameleonnews.com/02JulStrand.html
http://chameleonnews.com/06MayAnders...pulations.html
Laying Bin Set Up - Educational Video

 

[Mike Fisher]

You are doing the typical thing that everybody in the business does when they start out. The one thing they usually forget about is all of the expense and work before the first chameleon is sold.

To build up breeding stock then incubate eggs, then raise the hatchlings to a sellable age takes years. That's years of electricity, feeders, vet bills, water bills, and tons of labor before you see a dime.

That's if everything goes right! All it takes is a unexpected power outage, or unforseen virus, parasite that attacks eggs, etc. and you are back to square one. And it is emotionally devastating if that happens.

It only sounds fun until you actually try it at that scale. Then you realize it is just a job, and you don't enjoy your little hobby anymore. If you decide to go for it, don't say we didn't warn you.

 

[reefercheefer]

I started out breeding may 2012 and it's been nothing less than amazing. I love every part of the process. Just like with any hobby you need $. As long as you're financially stable and petty rises in electricity bills and food costs don't affect you, you'll be fine. I work 50 hr weeks with a 2hr Daily commute and go to school full time on weekends. I still wake up early everyday to feed tons of mouths. They eat breakfast and dinner before I do. You just have to love what your doing and don't listen to anyone but yourself. Dont get me wrong, There is money in it but you have to be on a certain scale to be able to Live off it if that's your plan.

Best of luck to you

 

[sking21]

Thanks reefercheefer,
I guess no one read post anymore..Throughout this thread I thoroughly explained my purpose and intent.
-Money is not a problem, if I wanted I could buy a couple parons and try and real breeding venture
-I have a strong work ethic unlike many people who we see come and go through hobbies
-at the moment I have a male trans veiled and two high turquoise females and
a pair of baby ambi...im sure to get the experience necessary to get a taste of what work would be required before I make a bigger plunge.
-I said many times this is a process that would take years to develop part of which time I would take to build my feeders to the point untill i have to sell off and trade extras


-My purpose of this thread was to gain more insight of the benefits of turning my hobby into a licensed business(tax breaks,write offs,etc).
-I dont know why it seem that its implied I am trying to get 20 adults chams within 6months, breed, sell and start over.....

 

[sandrachameleon]

-My purpose of this thread was to gain more insight of the benefits of turning my hobby into a licensed business(tax breaks,write offs,etc).

well honestly that wasn't clear in the first post and I only scimmed th rest
the non revenue benefits would depend on where you live, I should think. I could help answer that if you live in BC. but as you've not added your location info to your profile, I don't know where you are

 

[DanSB]

Thanks reefercheefer,
I guess no one read post anymore..Throughout this thread I thoroughly explained my purpose and intent.
-Money is not a problem, if I wanted I could buy a couple parons and try and real breeding venture
-I have a strong work ethic unlike many people who we see come and go through hobbies
-at the moment I have a male trans veiled and two high turquoise females and
a pair of baby ambi...im sure to get the experience necessary to get a taste of what work would be required before I make a bigger plunge.
-I said many times this is a process that would take years to develop part of which time I would take to build my feeders to the point untill i have to sell off and trade extras


-My purpose of this thread was to gain more insight of the benefits of turning my hobby into a licensed business(tax breaks,write offs,etc).
-I dont know why it seem that its implied I am trying to get 20 adults chams within 6months, breed, sell and start over.....

Many here have either a lack of desire or inability to read. That said a lot of good advice was given.

I am no tax expert and would consult a CPA for verification but I would imagine if you invest a significant amount into start up it would be a good idea to set yourself up as a business and take available write offs for your losses.

Before starting a business it is always good to consult 2 people: a lawyer and a CPA. The few hundred bucks spent there is well worth avoiding future problems and they can better describe benefits of how to properly set up.

I think the realities of breeding chams is well described above. To be profitable it helps to think outside the box. For instance a uvb transparent skylight could cut costs on uvb lighting, breeding your own bugs and selling off extras, solar panels to provide electricity, etc. Most people don't or can't do these things because the up front cost is very high, but over time will prove a significant savings and reduce costs. Also learning to do your own fecals, treating parasites, etc...

There is a lot you can do to mitigate costs.

 

[Mike Fisher]

-My purpose of this thread was to gain more insight of the benefits of turning my hobby into a licensed business(tax breaks,write offs,etc).

OK, sorry we didn't know you were coming to a reptile forum for tax advice.

As an owner of several hobby based business here's what I know: If you have net losses in more than 2 out of 5 years it is considered by the IRS to be a "not for profit hobby" and you can end up in tax court. Using your hobby for the sole purpose of a tax write off is a questionable practice, one that the IRS has been cracking down on.

 

[sking21]

OK, sorry we didn't know you were coming to a reptile forum for tax advice.

As an owner of several hobby based business here's what I know: If you have net losses in more than 2 out of 5 years it is considered by the IRS to be a "not for profit hobby" and you can end up in tax court. Using your hobby for the sole purpose of a tax write off is a questionable practice, one that the IRS has been cracking down on.

...and yet you gave me probably the most important piece of information I wanted to know. And yes that's why I kept my comments related to taxes vague no need for unnecessary attention. What they consider a business and how large I was already planning on making my collection is more or less what I wanted to know. I think more long term, the pet shop offered a opportunity and needed to figure out how much bigger I would have to go

 

[FlChamMom]

I am also not an accountant but I have had home-based reptile businesses as loan clients so I have seen their tax returns and had to do some research. Depending on how you set your business up (sole proprietorship, LLC, corporation) would designate whether you claim income/losses on your personal return or if the business would file its own return. As previously stated, if you do show a loss for at least 2 consecutive years out of five could cause your home-based business to be re-coded. I see more issues with small businesses and sales tax though. Many states have laws that say if you sell more than two animals in a 12 month period you should get a seller's permit and pay sales tax. I have seen clients take deductions for vans to transport to shows, mileage, expenses, as well as a portion of utilities used for lighting and heat. Whoever currently does your taxes can point you in the right direction for how to set up your business to benefit your individual situation.

 

[sking21]

As previously stated, if you do show a loss for at least 2 consecutive years out of five could cause your home-based business to be re-coded. I see more issues with small businesses and sales tax though. Many states have laws that say if you sell more than two animals in a 12 month period you should get a seller's permit and pay sales tax. I have seen clients take deductions for vans to transport to shows, mileage, expenses, as well as a portion of utilities used for lighting and heat. Whoever currently does your taxes can point you in the right direction for how to set up your business to benefit your individual situation.

-Everything im planning to do is going to be by the book, Im looking into getting a new tax guy, I need a specialist to handle income I had in another state before I moved back to maryland, so ill ask him more in-depth questions related to that.
-Would I go to the same building as people who apply for any other small business. im familiar with the start up of a tree cutting business.

 

[sking21]

OK, sorry we didn't know you were coming to a reptile forum for tax advice.

As an owner of several hobby based business here's what I know:

i would be helpful to know what hobby based businesses do you run, any in the pet industry. At what threshold did you pass for it to be considered a business and not a hobby?

 

[Lathis]

Whatever you end up doing, if you claim small business losses, be prepared to be audited. Be very organized with your documentation, receipts, and paperwork. The IRS knows all the tricks but there are a lot of auxiliary expenses/deductions that can be used. Follow the rules and photocopy everything. The ink on thermal receipts only lasts about a year. Definitely use a tax professional to help with your filing, especially that first year.



Edit: I've run a hobby in that past that reached the point where I considered converting to a business. After talking with my accountant, I decided against it. It was the right decision at the time, but the potential tax deductions were so attractive...

 

[sking21]

I guess my next questions is...Do I have to report a loss?

 

[FlChamMom]

When I say "could be re-coded" it's really not a switch that happens on year three... It would be something that would happen in an audit or if the IRS decided that the amount of deduction claimed was incorrect on a filed return. Maryland offers online business license applications, you would also need to get an EIN number. Good idea even if you are a sole prop- otherwise your social security number starts flying around. You apply for that on the IRS website. If you incorporate you would file your articles on the secretary of state website. I saw where you mentioned sales tax exemptions on animal sales in Maryland- make sure you ask if reptiles are included, Many of those exemptions only pertain to livestock or poultry sales as an agricultural incentive program. I love small businesses- good luck with yours!

 

[Boogiedog]

I too had a biz license for about 15 years. the last several I stopped doing shows and hence started recording annual losses - very minimal losses as I wasn't buying materials either (and as such hoped to fly under the radar) - and I believe it was about 3 years out I got a notice that I needed to re-classify as the license was going to be expired. So my biz/resale license expired.

Record keeping (obviously) is critical. All those tiny receipts add up. I used an expanding 1/yr (separated by month) folder that sat on my desk for easy filing.

Keeping track of the taxes is no joke - different cities and counties have different rates of taxation. If your sales are to one entity that certainly makes it easier.

I am preaching to the educated, but I echo the advise given above about consulting an attny and CPA. Something the attny can advise on is the contract you will want to have in place with the store. When it comes to money even the best relationships can go south fast. And dealing with live animals further complicates things - consider not only health upon delivery but any potential liability post purchase i.e. someone coming back and saying they contracted an illness, or got bitten, "not what they were lead to believe", etc.

Similarly, if you are to do the shipping for them (within the context of an on-line business) be sure to clearly delineate your role - i.e. if the animal arrives dead is the first contact you or them; who mitigates the claim, etc. You may or may not want your direct contact information shared in cyberspace.

My experience with delivering live animals to a store found that the post sale work/support was significant. If I had to do it over again, I would be clearer in my agreement that all questions/support need to be handled by the store.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like - I didn't handle shipping but had what sounds like a similar relationship that you are looking to have via a local store. I also am CEO of a large animal welfare org in the Bay Area and have significant experience in all things legal and animal...