Evolution?

[MissSkittles]

I have to share one of those strange little thoughts and just get it out of my brain.
Every now and then I run across pics of what certain dog breeds used to look like and it is so very far removed from what the breed currently looks like. This kind of stuff (selective breeding for traits) plus how animals evolve to adapt to their environments makes me wonder…what kind of effect we humans will be having on the appearance and possibly even anatomy of the more popularly kept chameleons (Veiled and panther)? Will perhaps in 100 years a descendent of our captive lines still look the same as a wild chameleon? For example, while the majority are kept in approx 2x2x4’ enclosures, will their bodies become smaller and perhaps their tongues become shorter? Maybe the veileds will reduce the maximum number of eggs they are capable of producing as they now are living much longer than one season? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 

[Tkrd69]

Well I wish chameleons were like gold fish and could grow to the size of their environment.

 

[MissSkittles]

Well I wish chameleons were like gold fish and could grow to the size of their environment.

That could get kind of frightening and risky. At her current size, Stella thinks my fingers are food and is fierce in her defensive attacks when I near her. If she got bigger I might lose a hand or worse.

 

[Morpheo's Mom]

I have to share one of those strange little thoughts and just get it out of my brain.
Every now and then I run across pics of what certain dog breeds used to look like and it is so very far removed from what the breed currently looks like. This kind of stuff (selective breeding for traits) plus how animals evolve to adapt to their environments makes me wonder…what kind of effect we humans will be having on the appearance and possibly even anatomy of the more popularly kept chameleons (Veiled and panther)? Will perhaps in 100 years a descendent of our captive lines still look the same as a wild chameleon? For example, while the majority are kept in approx 2x2x4’ enclosures, will their bodies become smaller and perhaps their tongues become shorter? Maybe the veileds will reduce the maximum number of eggs they are capable of producing as they now are living much longer than one season? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Maybe veileds also won't have bottomless pits for stomachs either. That would be nice.

 

[suprdude]

Dogs have a innate propensity for genetic variation, shared with few other animals.

 

[nightanole]

Genes
Gene expression

Selective breeding (domestication?) can have all sorts of adjustments. But odds are it takes 10 generations to get anything good.

So if someone starts now, in 10 years you could have "Billy's Veiled chameleon" and might be twice the size and be "nice".

Its pretty easy to do, though you generally only have 1 goal at a time.

Pick out 100 adult veileds, pick out the 10 most affectionate ones. Breed 100 babies to adult. Rinse repeat. Soon you will get issues with chams having separation anxiety...

You can make them bigger or smaller. Who wouldnt want a "toy" veiled?


Then some excape into the wild, and you end up with those funny colored white and regular marbled ducks...

 

[nightanole]

That could get kind of frightening and risky. At her current size, Stella thinks my fingers are food and is fierce in her defensive attacks when I near her. If she got bigger I might lose a hand or worse.

I tried to find the meme, but i couldnt. "chameleons cant kill you, its not that they dont want to, its just that they cant due to their size".

 

[MissSkittles]

I tried to find the meme, but i couldnt. "chameleons cant kill you, its not that they dont want to, its just that they cant due to their size".

That pretty much sums up Stella. But now my ridiculous imagination is picturing it as one of those cheesy horror movies from the 50’s/60’s - “Attack of the 50 foot Chameleon”…right down to the crappy SFX of a poorly crafted giant tongue snatching people and crazy hissing as the army tries to battle the beast (but fails due to the leaf walk).

 

[Tkrd69]

That pretty much sums up Stella. But now my ridiculous imagination is picturing it as one of those cheesy horror movies from the 50’s/60’s - “Attack of the 50 foot Chameleon”…right down to the crappy SFX of a poorly crafted giant tongue snatching people and crazy hissing as the army tries to battle the beast (but fails due to the leaf walk).

I love those movies, I even liked mystery science theater

 

[JacksJill]

I doubt they will change much over the course of captivity. Without the elasticity of canine DNA the changes will look more like that of domestic cats. Color selection with only a slight increase in size if that is the selected trait. Interesting thought though.

 

[jamest0o0]

I doubt they will change much over the course of captivity. Without the elasticity of canine DNA the changes will look more like that of domestic cats. Color selection with only a slight increase in size if that is the selected trait. Interesting thought though.

Good point, cats pretty much refused to be domesticated lol. If a mammal would stay that way so long, a reptile probably won’t change more than color and size(just off the gene pool).

Oh and also evolution doesn’t exist and I find this thread blasphemous.

 

[MzLaurie11]

I am not so sure major changes arent on the near horizon. we humans have moved them from several distinct areas to all around the world. For them to have lived with the dinosaurs they have learned how to adapt. I believe they will continue to do so. We here at the forum know how difficult they are to care for and how expensive. I imagine many will be released outside. I just hope it will not be where they have snowny winters! But who knows, thet may start hybernating!

 

[kinyonga]

Not chameleons, but an example of evolution due to a habitat change...
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/lizard-evolution-island-darwin

Chameleons...but is it evolution?
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evo-news/evolutionary-history-in-a-tiny-package/

Even closer? Chameleons...colors...
https://phys.org/news/2022-05-war-survival-chameleons-brighter-predatorsaround.html

More...
"There appears to be a pattern where the evolution of miniaturisation is associated with changes in ecology"...
https://www.firstpost.com/tech/scie...volution-of-miniaturised-animals-9480931.html

 

[Tkrd69]

You are a wealth of knowledge

 

[jamest0o0]

I am not so sure major changes arent on the near horizon. we humans have moved them from several distinct areas to all around the world. For them to have lived with the dinosaurs they have learned how to adapt. I believe they will continue to do so. We here at the forum know how difficult they are to care for and how expensive. I imagine many will be released outside. I just hope it will not be where they have snowny winters! But who knows, thet may start hybernating!

Chams really aren’t that difficult, saltwater aquariums as one example make chams look like taking care of a cat lol. Many other critters out there too, they just seemed hard because for the longest time we didn’t know how to meet their more specific needs. People weren’t even using uvb lights not that long ago.

Regarding humans, it took us what, about 200k years or more to evolve into Homo sapiens?

I guess it all depends on what we’d define as evolving and what’s considered a long time frame. Change in size and color, those could happen extremely fast. Major changes will likely take longer. Chameleons do pretty well at adapting it seems(some species at least), but would probably go extinct before they’d adapt to snowy winters or an equivalent extreme… lots of these animals need somewhat niche environments, some more than others. we don’t even have normal lizards in places with cold winters. Reptiles don’t hibernate, they Brumate and will usually need some sort of refuge like a burrow.

 

[kinyonga]

You are a wealth of knowledge

Not really...I'm just too full of curiosity with too much time on my hands!

 

[kinyonga]

Chams really aren’t that difficult, saltwater aquariums as one example make chams look like taking care of a cat lol. Many other critters out there too, they just seemed hard because for the longest time we didn’t know how to meet their more specific needs. People weren’t even using uvb lights not that long ago.

Regarding humans, it took us what, about 200k years or more to evolve into Homo sapiens?

I guess it all depends on what we’d define as evolving and what’s considered a long time frame. Change in size and color, those could happen extremely fast. Major changes will likely take longer. Chameleons do pretty well at adapting it seems(some species at least), but would probably go extinct before they’d adapt to snowy winters or an equivalent extreme… lots of these animals need somewhat niche environments, some more than others. we don’t even have normal lizards in places with cold winters. Reptiles don’t hibernate, they Brumate and will usually need some sort of refuge like a burrow.

Evolution is definitely difficult to define...this might help...
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evolution/
There are definitely some evolutions/adaptations that would/will never occur....or take many many years to happen.

 

[kinyonga]

Not chameleons...not adaption to cold...but to increased heat...
https://www.researchgate.net/public...hifts_Evidence_from_frogs_on_tropical_islands

Anoles...colder temperatures...
https://www.science.org/content/article/cold-snap-makes-lizards-evolve-just-few-months

Larger toe pads on anoles that live in hurricane areas...
https://weather.com/science/nature/news/2020-04-28-lizards-evolve-bigger-toes-to-survive-hurricanes

Shift to cold tolerance...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7655475/

"“A major unexpected result of this study was that all species converged on the same new, lower level of thermal tolerance"..
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/20/americas/falling-lizards-florida-scn-trnd/index.html

 

[kinyonga]

This "observation was linked to inter-annual climate uctuations, suggesting a relatively fast adaptation to shorter reproductive seasons concern- ing adult body size. is assumption is underpinned by the observation that males in Kirindy were signi cantly larger compared to those in the population of Ranobe"...
https://www.salamandra-journal.com/...anana-m-b-rice-p-m-kappeler-f-eckhardt-1/file

Again...not chameleons...but food for thought..
"this study “hints that many of the species we love and care about may not be able to mount a rapid evolutionary response to climate change.”...
https://nexusmedianews.com/caught-i...it-an-evolutionary-dead-end-30f65a648261/?amp

 

[kinyonga]

@jamest0o0 said..."would probably go extinct before they’d adapt to snowy winters or an equivalent extreme"… not only would the lizards have to adapt to survive, but their eggs would as well don't you think? Or maybe they would switch to live birth?