Freak Accident!!!!!!!! Need Help!!

[JaxyGirl]

You're doing an amazing job!!!! Hang in there..it will get better!!! You're dedication is unbelievable and I can tell how much you love your baby...good luck tonight and in to tomorrow. keep us updated...I've been hanging on the edge of my chair since this thread started and crossing my fingers for a happy ending..Wishing you and your girl the best!!!
Nat

 

[KShook]

Nat: Thank you for your kind words! I think were doing okay now...Since I made this second batch of "Bug Juice" and giving her small amouts at a time..she's more willing to let me handle and open her mouth to give it, and right away she swallows it... I'm sure this will make a big difference in her recovery..we'll just have to wait and see!!

Ohh..and it's been keeping me on the edge of my seat to!!! lol

You're doing an amazing job!!!! Hang in there..it will get better!!! You're dedication is unbelievable and I can tell how much you love your baby...good luck tonight and in to tomorrow. keep us updated...I've been hanging on the edge of my chair since this thread started and crossing my fingers for a happy ending..Wishing you and your girl the best!!!
Nat

 

[JaxyGirl]

Nat: Thank you for your kind words! I think were doing okay now...Since I made this second batch of "Bug Juice" and giving her small amouts at a time..she's more willing to let me handle and open her mouth to give it, and right away she swallows it... I'm sure this will make a big difference in her recovery..we'll just have to wait and see!!

Ohh..and it's been keeping me on the edge of my seat to!!! lol

You can definitely tell that she is a survivor by the way she is drinking up her bug juice like a good girl. She seems like a tough cookie...I think most chams would have given up by now...but not your baby...you're doing a really great job with her!
Nat

 

[KShook]

I totally agree she's definatley a fighter! I'm sure she'll do just fine in time..I cant imagine how she feels right now. But with the helpful antibiotics, fluids and bug juice, I dont think I could have done it without all that!

You can definitely tell that she is a survivor by the way she is drinking up her bug juice like a good girl. She seems like a tough cookie...I think most chams would have given up by now...but not your baby...you're doing a really great job with her!
Nat

 

[KShook]

entoglossal process

I've been trying to find anything and everything that I can about the entoglossal process and what exactly it does..So far the most intresting thing I found was this thread...But it says that the entoglossal process is the windpipe?? Does this mean this is where they breathe from?? And what will happens if...it were to be closed off??

Check it out let me know what you think...I'm still on the hunt for more information on this..if anyone has anything let me know please!!!

http://www.captivebredreptileforums...chameleon-anatomy-warning-graphic-images.html

 

[Chris Anderson]

I've been trying to find anything and everything that I can about the entoglossal process and what exactly it does..So far the most intresting thing I found was this thread...But it says that the entoglossal process is the windpipe?? Does this mean this is where they breathe from?? And what will happens if...it were to be closed off??

Check it out let me know what you think...I'm still on the hunt for more information on this..if anyone has anything let me know please!!!

http://www.captivebredreptileforums...chameleon-anatomy-warning-graphic-images.html

Thats the glottis, not the entoglossal process. The glottis is the entrance point from the oral cavity to the lungs. It has cartilaginous flaps and muscles that close it off while drinking, etc. The entoglossal process is the elongated, parallel sided bone that the tongue rests on. It enters the oral cavity from the deeper tissue & muscle layers in front of the glottis (more toward the nose).

Chris

 

[kinyonga]

Chris...you said there is a space into a body cavity that is left when the tongue is pulled out...can you show this clearly so we can see what you mean please?

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris...you said there is a space into a body cavity that is left when the tongue is pulled out...can you show this clearly so we can see what you mean please?

Here are the best photos I have to show this. The first thing you have to understand is that the tongue skeleton is not inside the oral cavity (the mouth). It is located in the peripheral muscle and tissue with parts of it being attached muscularly to the sternum. Because of the extreme movement that the hyobranchial apparatus goes through when the tongue is extended forward and withdrawn back into the mouth, a large part of the area the tongue skeleton occupies in the throat area (again, not in the oral cavity but its peripheral tissue and muscle) is relatively open (not tightly packed with muscle and tissue). The entoglossal process extends into the oral cavity but the tongue completely surrounds it, acting as a physical barrier between the oral cavity and the tongue skeleton, which is sitting within the internal lumen of the tongue.

Here is a photo of the intact tongue in its resting position at the start of a surgery nested over the entoglossal process as it typically is:

Here is a photo of the tongue in its extended position at the end of a surgery where you can see an incision that was made in the tongue that created a window and exposed the entoglossal process underneath:

As you can see, the tongue skeleton is typically not exposed to the oral cavity because the tongue completely envelops it.

Here is a photo from the middle of a surgery where the entoglossal process was extended out of the incision seen in the previous photo:

Now if you imagine that the entoglossal process was not just pulled out of a small incision but rather the tongue was just cut off, that is basically the situation you have with Kayla's cham. Theoretically, water, food, air, etc., can now get into the lumen of what is left of the tongue and follow the entoglossal process into the peripheral tissue and muscle layers where it originates.

You can think about it in two ways. First, imagine having a hole in the skin of your arm and then going swimming in a compost pile. Your skin, which normally acts as a barrier between the outer environment and your internal tissue and muscle layers, is broken and the derbies and liquid you are now swimming in can seep into your arm's tissue and muscle layers. The second way to think about it is wearing a glove on your hand. If you cut the thumb off your glove and put the glove on, your thumb is now exposed to the outer environment and air, liquids, etc., can seep inside your glove around your thumb where the hole in the glove is seen.

Its completely possible that scar tissue will form around the entoglossal process and seal off the underlying tissue layers, I don't know. Just like having a gash in your arm, however, you've broken the protective layer that prevents outside contaminants from getting into the tissue and muscle layers.

Chris

 

[tkilgour]

That is amazing Chris...Thanks for sharing that.

 

[laurie]

I know it is taking a while but the bug juice is what helped me pull one of my little girls through. I have a small blender just for bug juice - hubby won't let it near ours I don't know if I told you but keep the bug juice in the frig and toss it after 2 or 3 days at most. I put both pedalite and ensure in my bug juice. Blending cricket, dubious, and superworns then trying to shove them past a strainer to get them in a syringe is enough to gag me ever time. The things we do for our beloved chams.

I think you are doing wonderful!!!!

 

[KShook]

ohh Okay...yeah this is what I'm seeing when I feed her..! Ahh..what will happen if anything gets into that hole "glottis"??

Thats the glottis, not the entoglossal process. The glottis is the entrance point from the oral cavity to the lungs. It has cartilaginous flaps and muscles that close it off while drinking, etc. The entoglossal process is the elongated, parallel sided bone that the tongue rests on. It enters the oral cavity from the deeper tissue & muscle layers in front of the glottis (more toward the nose).

Chris

 

[KShook]

the Blender is a grrrrreat idea! We've been smooshing them by hand..NOT fun...Soo talking about feeding I gave her, her fisrt dubia since the accident and ate it just fine...I think if she's able to swallow this I would much rather give her whole insects than the bug juice, since I am a little worried about the juice getting into the hole...ehh, we'll see how well she does Thanks for the blender idea!

I know it is taking a while but the bug juice is what helped me pull one of my little girls through. I have a small blender just for bug juice - hubby won't let it near ours I don't know if I told you but keep the bug juice in the frig and toss it after 2 or 3 days at most. I put both pedalite and ensure in my bug juice. Blending cricket, dubious, and superworns then trying to shove them past a strainer to get them in a syringe is enough to gag me ever time. The things we do for our beloved chams.

I think you are doing wonderful!!!!

 

[kinyonga]

I had a chameleon that managed to pull against part of its tongue which was wrapped around a branch and tear a hole in it so the entoglossal process was sticking out. The vet repaired the damage, but since the tongue had been hyperextended it would not retract and it had to be removed. Enough was left to cover the entoglossal process and the chameleon learned to eat like other lizards do.

I have never had one with the tongue pulled right off leaving the entoglossal process showing. Somehow I expected that there would still be tissue at the base of the entoglossal process (sealed to it) and there would be no where for any debris/bacteria, etc. to collect that wasn't there when the tongue was attached.

 

[Chris Anderson]

ohh Okay...yeah this is what I'm seeing when I feed her..! Ahh..what will happen if anything gets into that hole "glottis"??

There is no more chance of that happening now then there would have been before the tongue issue occurred as the tongue and glottis are completely separate structures. We have a glottis as well but its further back in our throat. Anything getting into the glottis is basically like choking or aspirating fluid but you have no reason to worry about it as a result of the tongue issue.

Chris

 

[KShook]

Wheew Okay Thanks Chris..This was really concerning me..Geez theres SO much to worry about with these little guys!

There is no more chance of that happening now then there would have been before the tongue issue occurred as the tongue and glottis are completely separate structures. We have a glottis as well but its further back in our throat. Anything getting into the glottis is basically like choking or aspirating fluid but you have no reason to worry about it as a result of the tongue issue.

Chris

 

[kinyonga]

As Chris said the loss of the tongue won't make it any different concerning getting stuff down the glottis...but IMHO you still need to be careful as always not to get anything down the glottis and into the lungs.

 

[KShook]

Lynda: Of course I totally agree.. Me being able to see the Glottis kind of concerned me, in case anything got in there..EHh! BUt I feel a little bit better about it

As Chris said the loss of the tongue won't make it any different concerning getting stuff down the glottis...but IMHO you still need to be careful as always not to get anything down the glottis and into the lungs.

 

[KShook]

Update

It's been a while since I did an update on my Izzie Girl..She's still hanging in there! I'm no longer giving her the Bug Juice and feeding her between sm-med dubias and eating them great..I still have to open her mouth to do so, but she is eating them ask I give them to her! She's still drinking on her own, her strength is still really good. She's moving great about her enclosure, I couldnt be happier about her progress. My only concern now is that she's gravid...EHH and Now I'm giving her Cal Glucionate once a week, along with her fluids and baytril antibiotic...I hope she can pull through this with now being gravid..I'll post pics later..

 

[laurie]

It is good to hear she is doing well. Little doll sure chose a fine time to cycle those eggs didn't she? We know she is a fighter so hopefully all will be well.

Now you need to take time for a deep breath and try to relax.

 

[KShook]

Yes, She sure did pick a good time and just my luck to...lol I'm sure she will do just fine! it's just one of those annoying things..ya know?

It is good to hear she is doing well. Little doll sure chose a fine time to cycle those eggs didn't she? We know she is a fighter so hopefully all will be well.

Now you need to take time for a deep breath and try to relax.