How do Veilds identify sex of other chams?

[DavidBuchan]

Big male Veileds just peek under their skirts to be sure,...

That removes all possible doubt, but real male Veileds just 'know', lol

You know I bet a lot of this comes into play in the wild but not as much in captivity. If a male sees a female in a far away tree he needs to be very sure it is the right species and sex before he goes for a journey to get there. When you just slip a female int o his cage it is a much different WTF type scenario and that is where my checklist works.

I don't see that it would be much different in captivity from how your list describes it, though I imagine the Chameleons have less of a sense of humour about it.......'Club Chameleon' is in their little heads (and ours now) and will be the same whatever the circumstances of the meeting (even if it's just a mirror with no pheromones........)

 

[Seeco]

That removes all possible doubt, but real male Veileds just 'know', lol


I don't see that it would be much different in captivity from how your list describes it, though I imagine the Chameleons have less of a sense of humour about it.......'Club Chameleon' is in their little heads (and ours now) and will be the same whatever the circumstances of the meeting (even if it's just a mirror with no pheromones........)

No no I'm saying that in the wild all these biological cues are used but in a cage it is like a crash course like on my list.

 

[DavidBuchan]

No no I'm saying that in the wild all these biological cues are used but in a cage it is like a crash course like on my list.

I misread you then, you say it would be the same in captivity, just a little more intense....hence your amusing post, is that right?

 

[Seeco]

Yeah captivity is like Club Chameleon. I think that in the wild there is a lot more mate choice and signaling happening by both males and females because there are more interruptions, obstacles, threats etc. The most reproductively successful behaviors in captivity could easily lead to predation in the wild. I would not be surprised to learn that a male and female take over 24 hours to finally join in nature -- slowly and safely coming closer, scoping out the scene.

No matter how nice our enclosures are we still have caged rat symptoms on our hands. That is why you can ALMOST never have a pair together 24/7. The rare cases where it works proves that if everything is done right the sexes can actually establish a rapport which would only usually occur within a big comfortable territory or big lone tree.

Disclaimer: do not house your male and female together regardless of what music you spin.

 

[DavidBuchan]

Yeah captivity is like Club Chameleon. I think that in the wild there is a lot more mate choice and signaling happening by both males and females because there are more interruptions, obstacles, threats etc. The most reproductively successful behaviors in captivity could easily lead to predation in the wild. I would not be surprised to learn that a male and female take over 24 hours to finally join in nature -- slowly and safely coming closer, scoping out the scene.

No matter how nice our enclosures are we still have caged rat symptoms on our hands. That is why you can ALMOST never have a pair together 24/7. The rare cases where it works proves that if everything is done right the sexes can actually establish a rapport which would only usually occur within a big comfortable territory or big lone tree.

Disclaimer: do not house your male and female together regardless of what music you spin.

Totally with you on the safety first, I wouldn't keep mine together...........though it does depend on species/ space, and keeper experience for keeping them together permanently.....
As for mate selection again you and Olimpia make very good points......in nature they will probably judge things a bit differently to captivity, but the principles remain the same......
The original question was how do they know, and as has been said it is probably almost all visual (we don't know how much influence pheromones have on us, so we have no chance to guess at a Chams subconscious in truth).
We can safely say it is in large part visual due to the obvious sex distinguishing features of Chameleons like horns, fins, casques, colours, patterns, displaying behaviours.........

 

[allencg101]

Oh yea, I just went right back to this, mentally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyx6JDQCslE&list=FL2nCZn5ko1sxQUOhV1NFDIw&index=9

I'm also sort of concerned about the level of detail in what Seeco imagines goes on at bars or night clubs lol Sheds light into a part of his life that concerns me. .

lmfao!!! this is the first time i've seen this video heard the song before but first time i've seen this video!!! I can totally see seeco walking around dancing like this in the club!!! but i got to admit ron jermy does a better hip grind then me!!!

 

[Chris Anderson]

its through a pheromone released by female chameleons, only birds and reptiles can smell it. When a female sees another chameleon, they will release the scent, if they dont detect a pheromone other than their own, they know its a male, vice versa. of course, if the female detects that its a male, she will judge him by look of his casque and visual patterns, aparently the females like dotted patterns most

There is no evidence that chameleons excrete any pheromones for sexual recognition. It has been speculated based on tongue tasting behavior of males and females when placed in new territories that males may rub their vent on branches to scent their territory, but this has never been definitively shown. There has never been any behaviors observed that are consistent with pheromone release for instant sex recognition, however.

I'm not aware of any studies with C. calyptratus, however sexual selection has been studied in F. labordi and F. verrucosus and a couple papers have been published on it by Kris Karsten, et al. They examined what morphological features in males resulted in the highest reproductive success (i.e. correlated morphology with the chance of a female letting the male mate with them) and came up with a few characters that seem to be indicative. Whether these traits are also tied to sex recognition or simply reproductive quality isn't clear.

Chris

 

[Thezillaman21]

There is no evidence that chameleons excrete any pheromones for sexual recognition. It has been speculated based on tongue tasting behavior of males and females when placed in new territories that males may rub their vent on branches to scent their territory, but this has never been definitively shown. There has never been any behaviors observed that are consistent with pheromone release for instant sex recognition, however.

I'm not aware of any studies with C. calyptratus, however sexual selection has been studied in F. labordi and F. verrucosus and a couple papers have been published on it by Kris Karsten, et al. They examined what morphological features in males resulted in the highest reproductive success (i.e. correlated morphology with the chance of a female letting the male mate with them) and came up with a few characters that seem to be indicative. Whether these traits are also tied to sex recognition or simply reproductive quality isn't clear.

Chris

I feel dumb for only understanding like 40% of that first time reading threw it. and seeco that maybe the funniest thing i have heard of realated to chameleons.

 

[bechsgaard]

I feel dumb for only understanding like 40% of that first time reading threw it. and seeco that maybe the funniest thing i have heard of realated to chameleons.

Haha dont worry about it, i read through it too fast and did the same thing, second time i got it though

 

[okiroo]

Omg, I had not seen that video.. Haaaahahahahahahaa

me either. always liked the song...now i saw that! XD!!!!

 

[Banders675]

laughed so hard

Oh yea, I just went right back to this, mentally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyx6JDQCslE&list=FL2nCZn5ko1sxQUOhV1NFDIw&index=9

I'm also sort of concerned about the level of detail in what Seeco imagines goes on at bars or night clubs lol Sheds light into a part of his life that concerns me.

In all seriousness, visual cues are a huge thing in mating, in most animals. Especially since the female has all the power when it comes to sexual selection, it's mostly based on the appearance of the male. She's seeing differences in between two males in things like size, color, health, complexity of display. For him, I can guarantee you that he is totally wired to recognize what a female looks like. And like Ferret said, there are a lot of scent cues that even humans pick up although we're not aware of them.

After all, we are acutely aware of who around us is male and female, and it goes beyond just what we're conditioned to expect (dress or long hair vs. beard and muscular arms, as an example). In tests where neutral gray figures are used but given different body proportions, such as wider shoulders or a wider pelvis, we instantly pick out which ones are female or male, and which proportion is most attractive to each gender. We're hardwired to breed, we and other animals know exactly how to recognize a possible mate quickly and take advantage of it.

I laughed so hard at your link.

 

[kinyonga]

Not explaining how males and females recognize each other but...
http://www.mendeley.com/research/ma...-male-common-chameleons-chamaeleo-chamaeleon/

It was also pointed out to me by Lynn Raw that my C. chamaeleons had what might be a scent gland on a scale of the cheek area of their faces.

 

[Seeco]

its through a pheromone released by female chameleons, only birds and reptiles can smell it. When a female sees another chameleon, they will release the scent, if they dont detect a pheromone other than their own, they know its a male, vice versa.

Do you mean like the females pass a little gas when they see another cham? I wonder how that would go down in Club Chameleon?

Thanks Chris for mostly clearing this up but do you know anything about this theory of birds being able to smell chameleon pheromones?

 

[chamguy]

This is a very interesting post. What about reptiles in general? I have bred leopard geckos in the past and they seem to know gender right away. When my male gecko would see a female he would rattle his tail right away. But if it was a male he would charge him and fight. I have also bred bearded dragons, and since they show more gestures, I suppose that is there way of telling sex. If the female waves back she must be receptive. and of course other males would have black beards, but they never fought.

With chameleons I am unsure since I have yet to breed. But I would not be suprised ( intreged of course) if they had some sort of bodyodor/ pharamone such as insects, or other mammals during their heat cycle. It may be a visual que such as with birds.

 

[chamguy]

Do you mean like the females pass a little gas when they see another cham? I wonder how that would go down in Club Chameleon?

I think he means, like a gland release of a pharamone possibly near the vent or face ( as stated) if they have the ability to use pharamones to find a mate.

But who would attract who?

@Kinyonga- Thank link you posted is very interesting, and also explains how we are able to house pairs together sometimes successfuly.

 

[Chris Anderson]

The gland on the side of the face that Lynda is referencing is the temporal gland. A number of species have it and from it, a substance is excreted that is often rubbed on branches. The function of this substance is debated but theories have included baiting in prey and marking territory. Because it is a secreted substance that is rubbed on branches, not released into the air, the only way it could act as a sexual recognition substance would be if another chameleon tongue tested the location it was rubbed. Because chameleons do not require this type of behavior to recognize the sex of another mature individual of their own species, this obviously is not its primary function.

As for the general notion that some sort of body odor or pheromone is excreted, near the vent, face, or elsewhere, that can be used to differentiate sex, this would necessitate a mechanism to detect such an oder or pheromone. In general, chameleons are considered microsmatic at best. Their olfactory epithelium, olfactory nerves and olfactory nerve branches are reduced and poorly developed, making it unlikely that they would smell such an odor.

Chris

 

[kinyonga]

Chris...I'm not talking about the gland in the corner of the mouth...but on one of the scales perhaps two rows of scales away from the mouth corner on the cheek. I wish I had a photo that I could show you it on. There was one on the old ADCHAM forum where Lynn had circled the gland.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Lynda,

I've found no mention of such a gland in any of the scientific articles or morphology references I have. Do you happen to recall a name for said gland? Has it been confirmed that these scales truly secrete anything naturally? I'll email Lynn and see if he has any more information on this, but this is the only mention of such a structure that I've ever seen.

Chris

 

[kinyonga]

I don't know if it excretes anything or not....and I doubt that there's a name for it either. Lynn is the one who noticed it and nothing was ever followed up on it to determine what it did. Sorry. I don't know if you can still see the picture where Lynn blew it up and circled it on the old ADCHAM forum or not. I'll try to find the post later today.

 

[Seeco]

Thanks for more info Chris. What you say confirms what I'd expect: With such huge eyes and small brains there's no room for such olfactory function!

Do you guys have any more info on these glands?