If there were new CITES species quotas?

[bobcochran]

A call to action!

Hey Jeremy what do you say?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

It really has nothing to do with bringing them back to prime. It is the end of the life cycle for a lot of the smaller shorter lived species. Females have laid their eggs and males have fought.

Waiting until closer to the end of the year would provide younger healthier animals.

Carl

Carl

That is a consideration. However Ardi reported (if this claimed of hers is indeed accurate) that she had a captive Furcifer willsii that lived 8 years. Meaning some of these species (even though small) may not be that short of lived species. However if they are longer lived species, and they arrive to exporters during the dry season when they are emaciated and dehydrated. These chameleons should be allowed to recover before being exported.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

It sounds like lobbying Cites to post their quota numbers later in the year might be the more effective route to change. The Cites members aren't starving, and they're supposed to care about the animals. Let's get a movement going. Explain why it makes sense to Cites. I bet Jeremy could find the proper place to direct emails.

Bob

I was going to bring up this agenda today at noon at the office Bob it was too late last night. I am on the mailing lists for CITES and receive updates from them meaning there is a couple people I can contact. However the Chameleon Specialist Group would be another good place to make a change of when these quota are shipped. Or even Chris Raxworthy may would be a good individual to contact. We have got some options.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Its realy nice that you have the best intentions for these animals Jeremy.
I talked with Olaf about it and he shares the same ideas as you and me but the other 99%dont give a *** about it and will send the same day as the got their export permit.
If you want mine opinion ,i wont buy any animals from the first shipments mortality rate will be huge.
Wait until imports come in later this year(starting October /November)
But i think for the majority it will be to late.
Not exactly a great start with these new quotas......

Jurgen

It is our hobby. The Malagasy reptile/chameleon collecting/farming jobs would not exist without the chameleon hobbyists. We pay their bills. Meaning that we (chameleon keepers) are going to be capable of changing policy even if it is a slight adjustment of shipping 1 to 2 months latter int the year.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[CarlC]

You can't compare a chameleon held in captivity to a wild one. Ardi provided water and food daily. This time of year near Andasibe you might not see rain for a week or two.

A really good example is during October/November when I was there the rains hadn't arrived yet. Calumma furcifer, Calumma gallus and Calumma malthe were only found on branch's above streams. There were only found there because of the insect hatch's. At Mantadia Special Reserve, a Calumma mathe locale, the forest was extremely dry. No cicada's, Katydid's, Phasmids or roach's could be found or heard.

Carl

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

You can't compare a chameleon held in captivity to a wild one. Ardi provided water and food daily. This time of year near Andasibe you might not see rain for a week or two.

A really good example is during October/November when I was there the rains hadn't arrived yet. Calumma furcifer, Calumma gallus and Calumma malthe were only found on branch's above streams. There were only found there because of the insect hatch's. At Mantadia Special Reserve, a Calumma mathe locale, the forest was extremely dry. No cicada's, Katydid's, Phasmids or roach's could be found or heard.

Carl

Carl

I am just stating the exact maximum age of most of these species is not known in captivity (USA at least) or for the most part in the wild (to the best of my knowledge other than the reading material I have gone through) we are just speculating as of now. Now that we are going to be allowed to officially keep and start working with these species in captivity again we are going to learn/discover what their lifespan is first hand. Olaf has even stated that the life expectancy for these chameleons is much longer than most would expect for Calumma parsonii parsonii (20 years). Either way the point is these chameleons should be exported later in the year.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[CarlC]

No doubt you guys and girls who will be keeping them will have a lot to share with the rest of us.

Carl

 

[bobcochran]

Jeremy
Forget the monetary incentive for the exporters, if Cites didn't release quota lists until later in the year when the chams are in better health the exporters wouldn't have the choice to ship until later in the year.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Carl

I am just stating the exact maximum age of most of these species is not known in captivity (USA at least) or for the most part in the wild (to the best of my knowledge other than the reading material I have gone through) we are just speculating as of now. Now that we are going to be allowed to officially keep and start working with these species in captivity again we are going to learn/discover what their lifespan is first hand. Olaf has even stated that the life expectancy for these chameleons is much longer than most would expect for Calumma parsonii parsonii (20 years). Either way the point is these chameleons should be exported later in the year.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Jeremy
Forget the monetary incentive for the exporters, if Cites didn't release quota lists until later in the year when the chams are in better health the exporters wouldn't have the choice to ship until later in the year.

Bob

That is exactly the point I was stating at the end of my previous post along with posts previous to the post I have just quoted.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[kameleons jvo]

No doubt you guys and girls who will be keeping them will have a lot to share with the rest of us.

Carl

full agree with you

 

[Chris Anderson]

Unfortunately I think the best avenue to effect a change in the time of year these animals are exported from Madagascar is with your wallet via the importers. The importers need to know that you won't buy these animals when they are imported during inopportune times of the year and their health is risked or compromised. They then can refuse to take shipments during this time of the year, which will effect when the exporters collect.

The mandate of CITES, however, is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten their survival in the wild. As long as trade practices are not seen as inhibiting that goal, CITES does not have the authority or means to limit trade. So, while an argument over the well being and survival of the collected specimens is morally valid, CITES is likely not the appropriate avenue to pursue it with. The only way I can see CITES having control over the time of year specimens are exported is if a case can be made that collection during certain times of the year negatively impacts the survival of that species in the wild (such as collecting during the breeding season, etc.).

The Malagasy Management Authority would be a more likely avenue to discuss such a change, as they issue quotas and collection guidelines (which are monitored by CITES to ensure they fit within the broader goal of CITES). That said, I suspect they will similarly be mainly concerned with making sure that trade levels don't impact wild populations, not with what happens after the animals leave the country. Imposing limitations on when their exporters can make money would not be a popular change on their end, so it would likely require similar types of justification as CITES in general.

At any rate, I agree that it would be ideal if collection and export occurred during times of the year that were best for the animal's health and long term well being, but we need to be realistic about what is the best way to effect such a change, and it really is with our purchasing habits.

Chris

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Unfortunately I think the best avenue to effect a change in the time of year these animals are exported from Madagascar is with your wallet via the importers. The importers need to know that you won't buy these animals when they are imported during inopportune times of the year and their health is risked or compromised. They then can refuse to take shipments during this time of the year, which will effect when the exporters collect.

The mandate of CITES, however, is to ensure that international trade in specimens of wild animals and plants does not threaten their survival in the wild. As long as trade practices are not seen as inhibiting that goal, CITES does not have the authority or means to limit trade. So, while an argument over the well being and survival of the collected specimens is morally valid, CITES is likely not the appropriate avenue to pursue it with. The only way I can see CITES having control over the time of year specimens are exported is if a case can be made that collection during certain times of the year negatively impacts the survival of that species in the wild (such as collecting during the breeding season, etc.).

The Malagasy Management Authority would be a more likely avenue to discuss such a change, as they issue quotas and collection guidelines (which are monitored by CITES to ensure they fit within the broader goal of CITES). That said, I suspect they will similarly be mainly concerned with making sure that trade levels don't impact wild populations, not with what happens after the animals leave the country. Imposing limitations on when their exporters can make money would not be a popular change on their end, so it would likely require similar types of justification as CITES in general.

At any rate, I agree that it would be ideal if collection and export occurred during times of the year that were best for the animal's health and long term well being, but we need to be realistic about what is the best way to effect such a change, and it really is with our purchasing habits.

Chris

Everyone

Lets look at the condition of how these new Madagascar imports arrive first. Then if they arrive in terrible condition I think requesting later imports or refusing to buy Madagascar chameleons from importer to early in the season is a legitimate course of action. As stated before it is our hobby and the exports and importers would not be doing this without we the hobbyists (we are there source of revenue).

Edit: Chris this topic (time sensitive dates of when quotas are shipped) may not be a normal topic for CITES. However this is from the emails I have received is an agenda CITES would want to hear about.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[kameleons jvo]

I just took a look at the price list that the Madagascar exporters ask for the new species.....
I can just say wooow i hope you guys have a fat bank account lol,most of the prices are a loth higher than in Europe and they need to be shipped and off course the seller in the US want to make some money too...
Good luck

 

[Kent67]

The timing of the release of the 2014 permits is unfortunate and probably will mean poor health in a lot of the imports but won't the permits for these species in subsequent years be distributed much earlier, with all the others?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

The timing of the release of the 2014 permits is unfortunate and probably will mean poor health in a lot of the imports but won't the permits for these species in subsequent years be distributed much earlier, with all the others?

Kent

I could not tell you that. My recollection of the imports of Madagascar species is from 1994. Lets take care of these new shipments that are going to arrive then concern ourselves with future imports with how the future imports are going to be exported once we know more about them. Ideally though the Madagascar summer was the Madagascar's wet season and happens during the Northern Hemispheres winter meaning we would want exports to happen during the Madagascar summer or our Northern Hemisphere winter. That is to the best of my knowledge.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

From European sources (Thanks Mario Vermunt) there is supposed to be two imports of Madagascar chameleons. One in October or Autumn that is supposed to be the most mature and healthier chameleons (going into the wet summer season) and the second import in April or Spring that is supposed to be not as healthy of imports and much younger chameleons (going into cold hibernation season) than in Autumn. There were some questions about this and future imports of these new quotas.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

There has been two Madagascar imports of new 2014 Madagascar quota species this year in the USA to the best of my knowledge. As well as two years of Furcifer campani imports. New Madagascar quotas have been made and most of the goal of this thread has been accomplished. Now we members of the hobby have got to continue on and to take care of these quotas species and imports with conservation of chameleons in their native habitat and proper husbandry in the hobby. With that the chameleon hobby/industry has something great to look forward too.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

There are 6 new quota species that have been seen in the USA that have been posted to the best of my knowledge as for sale on the Chameleon Forums. There are another 8 species from the CITES Madagascar quotas that have not arrive to the USA yet. The ones that have arrived are [I]Calumma parsonii parsonii, Calumma o'shaughnessy, Calumma nasutum, Calumma malthe, Furcifer campani, and Furcifer antimena. Those that have not been seen yet are Calumma boettgeri, Calumma brevicorne, Calumma gastrotaenia, Calumma guillaumeti, Calumma marojezense, Furcifer bifidus, Furcifer petteri, Furcifer willsii[/I]. There are many more species on the horizon for keepers to look forward too. Many of these species are rare (actually some I have never heard reports of occuring in the hobby in North America before (Calumma guillaumeti (Brygoo, Blanc & Domergue, 1974) and Calumma marojezense (Brygoo, Blanc & Domergue, 1970) are two)) and at the same time not listed as being threatened with extinction by the IUCN Red List. We have got many things to look forward too. As well it looks as though Calumma crypticum is a prospect species that may become a new quota species possibly next year. The making of these new quotas is an accomplishment.

These again are the IUCN Red List Listings

The Calumma
Calumma boettgeri- Least Concern
Calumma brevicorne- Least Concern
Calumma gastrotaenia- Least Concern
Calumma guillaumeti- Least Concern
Calumma malthe- Least Concern
Calumma marojezense- Near Threatened (second lowest ranking)
Calumma nasutum- Least Concern
Calumma oshaughnessyi- Vulnerable
Calumma parsonii parsonii- Near Threatened

The Furcifer
Furcifer antimena- Vulnerable
Furcifer bifudus- Least Concern
Furcifer campani- Vulnerable
Furcifer petteri- Vulnerable
Furcifer willsii- Least Concern

With all this going on I highly recommend instead of buying that extra chameleon you have not got space for and instead making a contribution to conservation programs that directly or indirectly affects chameleons.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Cricket15]

how do i ask my own question?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

how do i ask my own question?

Aren't you asking a question now?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

This is not accounting for the new Brookesia species. There are many species from that genus to look forward to as well.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich