Interesting Raiden Faly

[Chameleon Nation]

Clark you still seem to think you know my lines better than I do. You did not breed these. So you dont know, you did not sell them, so you dont know. I bread them, I know. I cant find where you have produced any of these either so you dont know.

You cant call one brother pure and the other a cross. If one is...... They all are. So yes you called them crosses. I am agreeing with you, you were one of the ones that was so set on these being crosses. Now they are..... And you are saying they are not.

Every major breeder would agree that these colors are not in faly right.

This is exactly right. I don't see how this 7mo could really be from Nala, he is the same age as the rest of the Nika clutch.

The person really to ask is Ed Kammer he has more experience than anyone I know with purposely crossing chameleons and seeing the result. He has kept close records on what he has crossed what the percentages are and the outcomes. I am pretty sure he would tell you that when you cross lines you can see the results in the offspring and not just 1 in 100. Now I am sure they didn't all look the same. You see this all the time with Ambilobes you have some red bar some blue bar and some red/blue bar in the same clutch. But as I mentioned above you have much less genetic diversity with the more isolated gene pools such as nosy Mitsio, Nosy Faly etc. You see a lot of kammer babies on the board and you have JonRich who has a mostly orange body out of Son Tiger and I got a Yellow body with orange head and tail and blue bars out of the same sire. This is due to the great diversity in the females from ambilobe. This diversity just isn't seen in Nosy Faly.

And Drew no where in my posts does it say the whole line is crossed or that Raiden was a cross. To set the record straight.

 

[Captive Creations]

Now this is a good discussion. I have no regrets for the babies that he produced. People still want his babies even with the occasional one ending up like this. He still is and always will be my favourite whatever he was.

Drew

I agree! I want one now too! maybe after my mitsio comes monday!!

 

[Chameleon Nation]

I have spoke with them on this matter. Ed does agree that some will look pure while others look crossed. As long as they are sold as such.

 

[Todnedo]

I have spoke with them on this matter. Ed does agree that some will look pure while others look crossed. As long as they are sold as such.

The problem started with the wild collected falys, most of the females were collected in Ambanja.
where do you think I got my awsome Ambanja line from?
Wild caught gravid females labeled as Falys

 

[clarkrw3]

Clark you still seem to think you know my lines better than I do. You did not breed these. So you dont know, you did not sell them, so you dont know. I bread them, I know. I cant find where you have produced any of these either so you dont know.

You cant call one brother pure and the other a cross. If one is...... They all are. So yes you called them crosses. I am agreeing with you, you were one of the ones that was so set on these being crosses. Now they are..... And you are saying they are not.

Every major breeder would agree that these colors are not in faly right.

You are right, only you will know for sure what happened and what chameleons were involved in the breeding. All else is pure speculation

 

[clarkrw3]

The problem started with the wild collected falys, most of the females were collected in Ambanja.
where do you think I got my awsome Ambanja line from?
Wild caught gravid females labeled as Falys

LOL...WC females should never be trusted till proven out. Best case would be to have a female come in gravid and lay two clutches before ever being mated....Like Lee's WC female Faly.

 

[Chameleon Nation]

Exactly. So even though they are producing some pure white crosses you are still going to see the the other colors from Ambanja. So Raiden and or Nala were crosses.

The problem started with the wild collected falys, most of the females were collected in Ambanja.
where do you think I got my awsome Ambanja line from?
Wild caught gravid females labeled as Falys

 

[camimom]

Id just like to say, that while it does appear that the Op's cham is a cross.
I still think he looks relaly cool.

and to cham nation- until you have proof that raiden and/or nala was a cross, i would say they are falys.

who knows anything about what genetics were at work to create the OP's cham.

if most babies are coming at with the 'tradional' faly markings, then id still say they are falys.


ntm, you can say something is a cross all you want, but until theres proof, id stick with my guns.

and i dont mean you personally, i meant the you as in people.

and i think raiden and nala were/are gorgeous chams, and should be admired for what/who they are.

 

[Ace]

I think for the most part raiden and nala were pures

Maybe the bigger issue should be if OP'S cham is pure, maybe best not to breed it and the others that are odd and only breed the ones with the desired traits

I think with this locale it comes to designer looks of the coveted blue white red, rather than its validity of being pure.... but hey just a thought


They all look amazing nonetheless

 

[Todnedo]

Id just like to say, that while it does appear that the Op's cham is a cross.
I still think he looks relaly cool.

and to cham nation- until you have proof that raiden and/or nala was a cross, i would say they are falys.

who knows anything about what genetics were at work to create the OP's cham.

if most babies are coming at with the 'tradional' faly markings, then id still say they are falys.


ntm, you can say something is a cross all you want, but until theres proof, id stick with my guns.

and i dont mean you personally, i meant the you as in people.

and i think raiden and nala were/are gorgeous chams, and should be admired for what/who they are.

There is more to it than just looking at colors.

 

[camimom]

There is more to it than just looking at colors.

Oh I know. whcih is why im not gettin ginvolved in the whole pure/cross debate.

i just wanted to say that i think its a cool cham and stuff. thats all.

 

[Chameleon Nation]

I cant prove they were or they were not. I only have the babies to look at and say what they are. I asked the opinion of others so that I could get different ideas. I have been doing this a long time and I have seen it with other locales but now that it is happening with this one...... Who knows? I would like to believe that they are pure but the pics of the babies say it all. We can all form our own opinions on that.

These will still get sold as is but everyone will know before purchasing that it could turn out red, white and blue, or like one of the odd balls. I personally like the odd ones they are really cool.

Id just like to say, that while it does appear that the Op's cham is a cross.
I still think he looks relaly cool.

and to cham nation- until you have proof that raiden and/or nala was a cross, i would say they are falys.

who knows anything about what genetics were at work to create the OP's cham.

if most babies are coming at with the 'tradional' faly markings, then id still say they are falys.


ntm, you can say something is a cross all you want, but until theres proof, id stick with my guns.

and i dont mean you personally, i meant the you as in people.

and i think raiden and nala were/are gorgeous chams, and should be admired for what/who they are.

 

[camimom]

I cant prove they were or they were not. I only have the babies to look at and say what they are. I asked the opinion of others so that I could get different ideas. I have been doing this a long time and I have seen it with other locales but now that it is happening with this one...... Who knows? I would like to believe that they are pure but the pics of the babies say it all. We can all form our own opinions on that.

These will still get sold as is but everyone will know before purchasing that it could turn out red, white and blue, or like one of the odd balls. I personally like the odd ones they are really cool.

I do as well.
I think the OP's odd ball one is very cool, and i would even consider breeding it simply to gt that pattern again. but thats me. i like strange things.


I have the typical red white and blue faly. hes very cool looking as well.

and i think that doing what you said is just fine. sell them as falys, but let the buyer know.. thats all you can do.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I have purposely stayed away from this thread and others like it recently. Because there are only a handful of us on this board that have even produced cb falys. I am one of the handful of breeders that have actually breed and raised multiple clutches of faly. I have 3 seperate unrelated male lines and 4 seperate female lines Im working with. Now with my exp Im saying the OP cham is only 7 mos old. He may look like he does now at 1 1/2 yrs or he could change and look like a completely different chameleon. I know because Ive watched my Raiden male go from a green barred white background faly with red rain. To now at almost 2 yrs old hes blue barred with red rain. The cham in question on this thread needs to be reexamined after another 7 or 8 months. Then we can know for sure what we're looking at. Until then its all speculation. (I agree he looks weird, but I hold out judgement til hes at least a yr old) And Ive actually produced 70 plus faly offspring and I wont say for sure what he is. Ive seen panthers do alot of changing from 7 mos to 1 yr of age.

Now if a group of actual breeders would like to get together and share our opinions and our exp's with our own breeding attempts and offspring Im willing to join in. But Im not intersted in this faly drama.

 

[Olimpia]

Let's put this easy. You have a human couple, lets say Asian and they have LOTS of kids and every once in a while the wife pops out a baby that looks African all the other ones look Asian but this one looks different. Would you suddenly say wow genes are strange she must of had some different genes that are getting expressed here? Or would you get a genetics test and figure she stepped out on the marriage? Or maybe it's diet. She must be getting a different diet that is causing these babies to look different.


In science we like to say that the simplest hypothesis is the best hypothesis till proven otherwise. So in this case the simplest is: If it looks like a cross, it must be a cross, until proven otherwise.

You can have two white parents (or any other race parents) give birth to children that look pure black. It's called a throw-back, and there are several documented cases of it happening (For example the case of Sandra Laing, born in South Africa (of all places!) to white parents, and white grandparents, and white great-grandparents....). Obviously, someone along the line had been black, and it manifested itself several generations later.

You can have individual traits pass down too, of course, but we can't say that we never see cases of this happen.

I get what you mean about the simplest explanation. If you hear hoof beats don't assume it's a zebra, type of thing. But genes do strange things!

 

[Hoj]

You can have two white parents (or any other race parents) give birth to children that look pure black. It's called a throw-back, and there are several documented cases of it happening (For example the case of Sandra Laing, born in South Africa (of all places!) to white parents, and white grandparents, and white great-grandparents....). Obviously, someone along the line had been black, and it manifested itself several generations later.

You can have individual traits pass down too, of course, but we can't say that we never see cases of this happen.

I get what you mean about the simplest explanation. If you hear hoof beats don't assume it's a zebra, type of thing. But genes do strange things!

very well put and the exact point ive been trying to make

 

[Chameleon Nation]

I tired that awhile back but got the same thing............ I was told that I was comparing humans to chameleons lol. It happens in all mammals, reptiles, amphibians and so on. Label it as what it looks like since we are on the fence. If it is red, white and blue call it a Faly. It it has more of one color or another call it a cross. We all know what we have so go with your gut instinct and you best professional opinions.

I really wish Raiden were here to see all the crap he caused me lol. I miss you bud.

Drew

very well put and the exact point ive been trying to make

 

[camimom]

I tired that awhile back but got the same thing............ I was told that I was comparing humans to chameleons lol. It happens in all mammals, reptiles, amphibians and so on. Label it as what it looks like since we are on the fence. If it is red, white and blue call it a Faly. It it has more of one color or another call it a cross. We all know what we have so go with your gut instinct and you best professional opinions.

I really wish Raiden were here to see all the crap he caused me lol. I miss you bud.

Drew

just tell him. i talk to past animals all the time..
and im sure he knows.. hes probably sitting on a branch in cham heaven, laughing at us all.

 

[Chameleon Nation]

LMAO thats awesome.....

just tell him. i talk to past animals all the time..
and im sure he knows.. hes probably sitting on a branch in cham heaven, laughing at us all.

 

[drcrossfire]

Ok-- so I wanted to throw in a couple of points that kind of came up while I went through this thread.

Though geographic isolation is generally the cause for the coloration diversity, these are all still the same species and thus, color potential is still residual in the genes of all locales. We do not and have not done the research to determine how long this isolation has been for each locale, and the adaptive radiation may have only occurred in recent history. We do know that it hasn't even been long enough to cause speciation-- which is why these can interbreed readily.

People who are stating that hybrid until proven otherwise-- do not fully understand the nature of genetics. Yes, though highly unlikely, it is possible for two pure bred lines to exhibit traits that are found in neither of the parents. We do not know whether some of these coloration traits are sex driven; as the research is not there to back it.

I think that people just don't want to see greens in their faly's so there has been a crusade to discredit lines that appear to be different. To this, I would like to point to "True Blue" Nosy Be's. As many have seen this line; most of us also know that WC Be's are not True Blue, they have greens, blues, and sometimes reds. Just because they are different does not mean that they are not Faly's-- until someone goes throughout the wild of Nosy Faly and observes all of the males; we only know based on what is being shipped out.

I understand some peoples concerns with "pure bred falys" - just be careful with separation of opinion and fact.