MDB or Gout - Includes Xrays

[Bebopboop]

Hello! I hoped i'd never have to post here like this, but Bebop is definitely unwell

I just posted him yesterday looking vibrant and healthy...
I have had him since he hatched and he is 6 months old now. I am very familiar with his behavior, and he has seemed extremely healthy until today/tonight. He is definitely not acting normal, and I am concerned

He is in a 24" x 18" x 36" in cage (which i know is small - but he is a juvenile and I am planning on upgrading his cage in the summer). He has been in this same cage since birth. It has 3 screen sides and 2 glass panels - fan at bottom. I know that many here only recommend all screen sides, but I am commited to a hybrid set up because it helps me keep the humidity levels right. He is in a completely bioactive set up (also same set up since birth and was cycling months before he entered)
Fogger at night from 3am-6am and mist before lights on (7am) and lights off (7am).

Temps are mid to low 70’s with a basking of 80-83. At night it gets down to mid 50s-60. He has a linear uvb that is changed every 6 months. He has been eating crickets, grasshoppers, and dubia. Just fed him his first hornworms recently.. Dusted every feed with calcium wihtout d3 every day. Repashy Calcium plus loD twice a month.

He has really been growing and seeming extremely healthy, but today he seemed sluggish and now going to bed he is not in his normal cinn-a-bun position and his eyes are sunken.. I tried to hold him and he seemed super floppy..... he usually is social and climbs onto my hand even without a feeder.

I just got back from the vet and they said they were going to do XRays and Blood work, but after the x-rays they decided to just stop there and diagnosed him with calcium deficiency and low bone density - possibly dislocated/fractured bones due to a fall i didnt see. They treated as such, with calcium shot and supplements..

but now i am wondering if i should have just pressed for blood work to rule out gout.

What are the differences in behavioural symptoms between MBD and Gout??

Images 1-3: xray
Image 4: enclosure (lights off)
Image 5: sleeping last night
Image 6: in his *hospital room* one eye open, one eye closed
Image 7: Bebop getting weighed 2 days ago - seems healthy..

 

[MissSkittles]

I appreciate that they wanted to save your cham stress and you money, but they really should have done the blood work. I’m not even close to being a vet and able to read the x rays, but maybe this will help. https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...-like-how-it-happens-and-how-to-fix-it.95071/

 

[Lindasjackson]

I’m not a vet but I am a nurse and have seen lots of x-rays. I don’t see any obvious fractures but there could be some small ones I can’t see. What led them to believe he has a calcium deficiency?

 

[Bebopboop]

They said that the bone density looks really low in the x-rays

 

[Beman]

What is the exact uvb type you are using? A T8 or T5HO fixture? And what is the bulb strength.

Did they run a fecal to rule out parasites?

MBD is due to improper supplementation and UVB lighting. Gout is entirely different. Typically presents with swelling of the limbs. Need bloodwork to know if it is gout or renal issues.


Now cage.. It is far too small for him at this age. Fan at the bottom is not what you want. This is constant air and it is blowing towards the dirt up which if you have any fungal issues you do not know what bacteria is blowing up into the air and onto the surfaces. With a hybrid you buy one of the small pc fans and then place it on the top of the cage pulling air up and out not blowing it in.

Now hospital bin. You want to remove all tape... Tape and chams is extremely dangerous. Drill holes in the bin to push the sticks through.

 

[snitz427]

6 months surprises me for gout to develop… always thought that one took more time to present (but I’m not even close to qualified to make that call).

I will say that bloodwork will help determine gout… uric acid in the blood would he elevated (I believe), which can also be indicative of other issues / organ function. Gout can be triggered by chronic under-hydration, over or incorrect supplementation, among other things. It is painful, may shows swelling and inflammation around joints, similar to what you might see on someone with RA on their hands. Can go hand in hand with kidney issues, all of which bloodwork can help determine. I had a chameleon with suspected gout and it required special accommodations to assist with mobility, TLC, and special attention to hydration. That chameleon had special needs when it came to me (as an adult), so its unclear what the underlying cause may have been, but bloodwork did show mildly elevated uric acid.

 

[Bebopboop]

What is the exact uvb type you are using? A T8 or T5HO fixture? And what is the bulb strength.

Did they run a fecal to rule out parasites?

MBD is due to improper supplementation and UVB lighting. Gout is entirely different. Typically presents with swelling of the limbs. Need bloodwork to know if it is gout or renal issues.


Now cage.. It is far too small for him at this age. Fan at the bottom is not what you want. This is constant air and it is blowing towards the dirt up which if you have any fungal issues you do not know what bacteria is blowing up into the air and onto the surfaces. With a hybrid you buy one of the small pc fans and then place it on the top of the cage pulling air up and out not blowing it in.

Now hospital bin. You want to remove all tape... Tape and chams is extremely dangerous. Drill holes in the bin to push the sticks through.

T5HO 5.0 reptisun

Thank you for the advice about the fan. I understand that he is outgrowing his cage and will be upgrading if he makes it through this.

I removed the tape and actually ordered a 16"x16"x30" butterfly mesh enclosure i plan to put on it's side and use as a hospital bin when it gets here tomorrow.

 

[Beman]

T5HO 5.0 reptisun

Thank you for the advice about the fan. I understand that he is outgrowing his cage and will be upgrading if he makes it through this.

I removed the tape and actually ordered a 16"x16"x30" butterfly mesh enclosure i plan to put on it's side and use as a hospital bin when it gets here tomorrow.

What is your distance from the bottom of the T5 fixture to the branches below? Is the top panel of the cage standard aluminum screen?

I would see if they can get a fecal to test it and run blood work...

If he is trying to climb at all then keep him in the hospital bin. It will be safer than the butterfly enclosure. You want to limit falling if he is weak and not gripping properly.

 

[kinyonga]

As @Lindasjackson said…. I don’t see any obvious fractures but there could be some small ones I can’t see. What led them to believe he has a calcium deficiency?”…well said IMHO.

BTW…I’m not a vet either….just going from what I’ve learned over the years.

 

[Lindasjackson]

As @Lindasjackson said…. I don’t see any obvious fractures but there could be some small ones I can’t see. What led them to believe he has a calcium deficiency?”…well said IMHO.

Thank you Lynda

 

[EmilioTheAnkify]

You didn’t mention his diet?
Do you have a solar meter? I’ve received Arcadia bulbs that were bad out of the box and some that lose uvb output faster than 6 months.
I also have 2 enclosures with different material screen tops which one filters out the uvb more than the other.
I would offer him a dripper to drink and try to cheer him up by giving him a superworm or grasshopper

Did the vet really give him a shot?

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”They treated as such, with calcium shot and supplements”… what supplements?

 

[Bebopboop]

Hi - they gave him a calcium shot and sent me home with oral calcium glubionate that I am giving to him daily for a week (0.06ml/day). They also gave me some EmerAid IC Carnivore that I am syringe feeding him little by little.

You said…”They treated as such, with calcium shot and supplements”… what supplements?

 

[Bebopboop]

You didn’t mention his diet?
Do you have a solar meter? I’ve received Arcadia bulbs that were bad out of the box and some that lose uvb output faster than 6 months.
I also have 2 enclosures with different material screen tops which one filters out the uvb more than the other.
I would offer him a dripper to drink and try to cheer him up by giving him a superworm or grasshopper

Did the vet really give him a shot?

Hi I just changed his Reptisun T5H0 5.0 bulb this month as it was his 6month bbirthday. I used those UV cards to make sure that the UC was available.

I have grasshoppers on the way! But he isn't eating - I am syringe feeding him with a powder solution from the vet. See my comment below. Yes - they gave him 2 shots! One for hydration and one for calcium.

 

[Bebopboop]

Update: Bebop actually seems to be doing better today!! This morning he opened BOTH eyes - yesterday both of his eyes remained closed all day and he was really not moving very much at all.. on the floor. Today his eyes are open, and while he is still on the floor - he does appear to have more pep in is step! His tail is much more forcefully coiled around a little stick and he was much more responsive when I was giving him his calcium and supplements. I am taking all of this is a good sign..

We have a vet appointment on Friday with someone who is familiar with reptiles, so I am looking forward to seeing what he has to say and will get blood work done if he recommends it. Unfortunately no recent poops to bring - and he seems so weak i think it will be hard for him.

Last night I was in tears because he looked in so much pain/suffering that I though I would maybe have to ask the vet to put him down at the appointment (if he even made it that long), but today I am feeling cautiously optimistic

 

[Bebopboop]

Thank you Lynda

They explained that bones should be heavily contrasted against muscles (bones show up white and muscles more gray). From the X-rays they said the image of the bones in his legs seem to be blending in with the muscles - so it was more concern about bone thinning rather than fractures.

I am seeing a reptile vet specialist on Friday. I didn't think Bebop would make it until then, but he is showing signs of improvement I will ask their opinion if we should carry on with this treatment or if he recommends further blood tests

 

[Beman]

They explained that bones should be heavily contrasted against muscles (bones show up white and muscles more gray). From the X-rays they said the image of the bones in his legs seem to be blending in with the muscles - so it was more concern about bone thinning rather than fractures.

I am seeing a reptile vet specialist on Friday. I didn't think Bebop would make it until then, but he is showing signs of improvement I will ask their opinion if we should carry on with this treatment or if he recommends further blood tests

I would try to take a fecal in if you can get one and talk to the reptile vet about blood work... Have the xrays transferred there with his records so they can review it as well.

 

[Bebopboop]

I would try to take a fecal in if you can get one and talk to the reptile vet about blood work... Have the xrays transferred there with his records so they can review it as well.

I just dont won't any fecal samples that are < week old I'm syringe feeding him now, but in his current condition i feel like he is too weak to poop (it really seems like it takes some effort lol). Hopefully he will be able to pass something though before the appt.

Thank you!

 

[EmilioTheAnkify]

I asked about his diet because eating a lot of dubia can cause a build up of uric acid = gout.
Those uv cards are not adequate.
I know this because that’s what I was using before I just got a solar meter.
How much does he weigh?
Shots and blood work sounds very intrusive.
I’m positive superworms would cheer him up

 

[Bebopboop]

I asked about his diet because eating a lot of dubia can cause a build up of uric acid = gout.
Those uv cards are not adequate.
I know this because that’s what I was using before I just got a solar meter.
How much does he weigh?
Shots and blood work sounds very intrusive.
I’m positive superworms would cheer him up

Thank you for your concern!! He was raised 0-3months on fruit flies and crickets. Then I started introducing dubias around 4 months, but still mixed with crickets. Occasionally we have grasshoppers on hand, and he had his first hornworm on his 6 month birthday (Jan 6)!

I always feed the insects a mix of greens, carrots, apples, whatever veggies I have in the fridge. I was dusting his feeders most days (I know it is supposed to be every feeding, but if I am being honest I may have missed a few days) with Flukers Calcium w/o d3 and giving Repashy Calcium loD 2x month.... The only think I can think is maybe i was being too conservative with my dusting, because i kept reading everywhere not to over dust. I recently got BioDude gutload diet for the bugs, but he fell sick before he ate those bugs.

I was skeptical of the vets diagnosis, but now that he is responding positively to the extra calcium and vitamins, I am thinking (hoping) that this can get him back on track.

I am looking forward to our vet appointment on Friday. The dr seems really good! I will definitely get him some superworms if he makes it through this. Right now he is totally uninterested in food, and like I said hasn't pooped in a week... but I will continue to offer some food everyday until he has the strength to eat!