New Quads! Imported Feb/15

[Mike Fisher]

The value of having plastic plants is to help create a parasite free environment.

That's a valid point.

 

[jajeanpierre]

They are such beautiful chams.
I want to say something about the mites. I think they are Pterygosomatidae species. I don't now if they can breed in house but my Kuhl's geckos and dwarf day geckos had those mites and they are BAD. They may not kill a "big" chameleon like that one but they weaken the animal. Also they don't live just a couple weeks, they stay long... or they breed, because even after I got rid of the mites on my Kuhl's geckos they came back 2-3 months later. That means they breed in humid terrariums or they can live several months.
These mites are commonly seen on WC or "farmed" tropical geckos but it seems like even WC or "farmed" chameleons can have those red scary creatures. I recommend you to get rid of those mites with using cotton swabs and mite-off or olive oil (any oil may work too I guess).

I dabbed olive oil on them this afternoon after I cleared it with my vet.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I dabbed olive oil on them this afternoon after I cleared it with my vet.

I am a big fan of the olive oil as a remedy for the mites.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[frankpayne32]

And, no, I personally think a Pothos is a toxic plant, even if no one else on the chameleon forums does, so I won't use that. I do and my vet does.

Keep in mind that the insoluble calcium oxalates found in golden pothos (Epipremnum aureum), while toxic to mammals, is not likely toxic to reptiles, at least not in small doses. It really is not something you should worry about unless you have a cham constantly eating it. Even then probably not an issue. Pothos make some of the hardiest and best cover plants. I used to acclimated WC Corucia zebrata on them as that was part of their natural diet on the Solomon Islands. Almost every baby lizard I have raised or shipped has had a sprig of pothos in their container.

Plastic plants make sense in terms of quarantine but I tend towards live plants anyway as I think the benefits outweigh the negatives. Best of luck with the quads. They look much better than the first shipment.

 

[fluxlizard]

And, no, I personally think a Pothos is a toxic plant, even if no one else on the chameleon forums does, so I won't use that. I do and my vet does.

Originally Posted by jajeanpierre View Post
And, no, I personally think a Pothos is a toxic plant, even if no one else on the chameleon forums does, so I won't use that. I do and my vet does.
Keep in mind that the insoluble calcium oxalates found in golden pothos (Epipremnum aureum), while toxic to mammals, is not likely toxic to reptiles, at least not in small doses.

Yeah- pothos has a long history of safe use with lizards.

I've had veileds that literally devoured pretty large pothos vines over a couple months time and they lived long and healthy lives.

It has been a "go to" plant for my lizards for decades. I like it because it can be grown in substrate or pot, it can take plenty of water or even grown in the water (I grow it in my shinisaurus water for example), eaten by the lizards, etc. I've never met a lizard that it has harmed.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Keep in mind that the insoluble calcium oxalates found in golden pothos (Epipremnum aureum), while toxic to mammals, is not likely toxic to reptiles, at least not in small doses. It really is not something you should worry about unless you have a cham constantly eating it. Even then probably not an issue. Pothos make some of the hardiest and best cover plants. I used to acclimated WC Corucia zebrata on them as that was part of their natural diet on the Solomon Islands. Almost every baby lizard I have raised or shipped has had a sprig of pothos in their container.

Plastic plants make sense in terms of quarantine but I tend towards live plants anyway as I think the benefits outweigh the negatives. Best of luck with the quads. They look much better than the first shipment.

I think everyone is under the impression that my cages are all plastic plants. That's just not the case.

I have plastic plants and no live plants only in with the three baby quad quads because the importer--who deals with thousands and thousands of baby chameleons--has said that on the whole, he has noticed that when baby chameleons have commercial plants, they don't do as well as when they were on plastic only. He thinks there is something systemic given to the plants, on the plants or in the soil. And, yes, he washes his plants over and over again before using them. (I am not sure if he uses dishwashing detergent as I do.) When someone says that hundreds of babies housed with live (Home Depot) plants do more poorly than hundreds of babies with plastic, that's a pretty huge statistical sample and not to be dismissed regardless of your opinion of the skills of the person keeping these babies.

I have live plants in with everyone else. I use those fake bendy vines because I can get perching/basking places where I want them. I have some fake plants in with the young graciliors because I can't get enough cover of live plants at the top. They need more cover as I couldn't get more plants that were "safe." The supply of house plants is really different locally than it is in the north. I bought the store out and have been to every Home Depot and Lowes within 20 miles.

As far as the Pothos, using your reasoning you should advocate advocate putting in philodendrons. Do you?

Toxic plant lists for most animals are an extrapolation of existing known data based on research on other animals/species. This isn't my idea, this is what my avian vet (who has a large reptile practice as well) told me. He said that there was no research done. He said--and the question about the safety of Pothos was brought up around my veiled who believes he is an herbivore--he would not advise putting anything but Hibiscus, a known safe plant, in my veiled's cage.

Regardless of whether or not some of you have had chameleons live through stripping of a pothos plant, I have to wonder what causes those unexplained deaths that we so often read about. How many have post mortems done on their dead chameleons? I open up any chicken I have that dies (rare but it happens) and I go through the internal organs of anything I cull or slaughter to get a handle on the flock health. I don't see that being a common practice with reptile keepers.

I once had a wonderful young African Grey parrot. I was very new to parrot keeping and "everyone" recommended I give him chicken bones because they need extra calcium. It felt wrong to me. "Everyone" who kept Greys said it was the proper thing to do. So, one day I gave him the bones of chicken wings I was eating. He was in heaven.

The next day, he wasn't well. I called my vet only to find he had been shut down for employing illegals. I was begging him to see my bird, but he refused as he didn't want to be thrown in a Saudi jail. Saudi Arabia is not like the West--there is no Yellow Pages where you can look up another vet and this was before the internet was in KSA. I knew of no other vets. I called the next day, again begging him to see my bird. Finally, he said my bird might be seen by an avian vet at the Fahad bin Sultan Falcon Center (Before that call, I didn't even know the center existed). I was in a taxi in minutes (women can't drive) with my by now very sick bird.

I walked into the waiting room to find it filled with Bedouin falconers with their birds. Was I out of place--a Western woman with her head uncovered during the holy month of Ramadan with all these Saudi men! A kindly man immediately walked up to me, "Madam, do you have a little dog in that cage?" He must have known my clinic was closed by the Mutawa'a (literally named the Committee for Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice). He ushered me into a room where he spent two hours desperately trying to save my parrot. After the parrot died, he explained that he was toxic caused by fermenting meat, etc., in a blocked crop and that a falcon could get into the same critical condition within 24 hours after overeating.

He asked why I had given the bird bones. He rattled of the nutrients available in cooked bones and suggested another source would be safer. Bless his heart, he never called me an idiot to my face, but I know he sure thought I was. When I suggested to parrot forums that it was perhaps not a wise thing to do, "everyone" said they had been doing it for years and it was safe.

Based on that experience, I won't trust unscientific anecdotal evidence for something that could be unsafe. "Everyone" has anecdotal evidence that pothos is safe, while the hobby experiences frequent unexplained deaths and animals doing poorly for no known reason, with no post mortems after death.

No, I think I'll take the advice of my avian vet who has a very large reptile practice. No slight intended, but my experience of following the advice of many experienced parrot keepers cost a very lovely bird his life.

 

[frankpayne32]

I think everyone is under the impression that my cages are all plastic plants. That's just not the case.

I have plastic plants and no live plants only in with the three baby quad quads because the importer--who deals with thousands and thousands of baby chameleons--has said that on the whole, he has noticed that when baby chameleons have commercial plants, they don't do as well as when they were on plastic only. He thinks there is something systemic given to the plants, on the plants or in the soil. And, yes, he washes his plants over and over again before using them. (I am not sure if he uses dishwashing detergent as I do.) When someone says that hundreds of babies housed with live (Home Depot) plants do more poorly than hundreds of babies with plastic, that's a pretty huge statistical sample and not to be dismissed regardless of your opinion of the skills of the person keeping these babies.

I have live plants in with everyone else. I use those fake bendy vines because I can get perching/basking places where I want them. I have some fake plants in with the young graciliors because I can't get enough cover of live plants at the top. They need more cover as I couldn't get more plants that were "safe." The supply of house plants is really different locally than it is in the north. I bought the store out and have been to every Home Depot and Lowes within 20 miles.

As far as the Pothos, using your reasoning you should advocate advocate putting in philodendrons. Do you?

Toxic plant lists for most animals are an extrapolation of existing known data based on research on other animals/species. This isn't my idea, this is what my avian vet (who has a large reptile practice as well) told me. He said that there was no research done. He said--and the question about the safety of Pothos was brought up around my veiled who believes he is an herbivore--he would not advise putting anything but Hibiscus, a known safe plant, in my veiled's cage.

Regardless of whether or not some of you have had chameleons live through stripping of a pothos plant, I have to wonder what causes those unexplained deaths that we so often read about. How many have post mortems done on their dead chameleons? I open up any chicken I have that dies (rare but it happens) and I go through the internal organs of anything I cull or slaughter to get a handle on the flock health. I don't see that being a common practice with reptile keepers.

I once had a wonderful young African Grey parrot. I was very new to parrot keeping and "everyone" recommended I give him chicken bones because they need extra calcium. It felt wrong to me. "Everyone" who kept Greys said it was the proper thing to do. So, one day I gave him the bones of chicken wings I was eating. He was in heaven.

The next day, he wasn't well. I called my vet only to find he had been shut down for employing illegals. I was begging him to see my bird, but he refused as he didn't want to be thrown in a Saudi jail. Saudi Arabia is not like the West--there is no Yellow Pages where you can look up another vet and this was before the internet was in KSA. I knew of no other vets. I called the next day, again begging him to see my bird. Finally, he said my bird might be seen by an avian vet at the Fahad bin Sultan Falcon Center (Before that call, I didn't even know the center existed). I was in a taxi in minutes (women can't drive) with my by now very sick bird.

I walked into the waiting room to find it filled with Bedouin falconers with their birds. Was I out of place--a Western woman with her head uncovered during the holy month of Ramadan with all these Saudi men! A kindly man immediately walked up to me, "Madam, do you have a little dog in that cage?" He must have known my clinic was closed by the Mutawa'a (literally named the Committee for Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice). He ushered me into a room where he spent two hours desperately trying to save my parrot. After the parrot died, he explained that he was toxic caused by fermenting meat, etc., in a blocked crop and that a falcon could get into the same critical condition within 24 hours after overeating.

He asked why I had given the bird bones. He rattled of the nutrients available in cooked bones and suggested another source would be safer. Bless his heart, he never called me an idiot to my face, but I know he sure thought I was. When I suggested to parrot forums that it was perhaps not a wise thing to do, "everyone" said they had been doing it for years and it was safe.

Based on that experience, I won't trust unscientific anecdotal evidence for something that could be unsafe. "Everyone" has anecdotal evidence that pothos is safe, while the hobby experiences frequent unexplained deaths and animals doing poorly for no known reason, with no post mortems after death.

No, I think I'll take the advice of my avian vet who has a very large reptile practice. No slight intended, but my experience of following the advice of many experienced parrot keepers cost a very lovely bird his life.

Sounds like you have it all figured out and don't need any advice. Best of luck to you with the quads. They are special animals.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Sounds like you have it all figured out and don't need any advice. Best of luck to you with the quads. They are special animals.

I don't think that's fair. There is more than one way to skin a cat and they can be all reasonably correct.

If I had it all figured out I wouldn't be asking for others to describe how they keep their quads and why. If the experts had it all figured out, they wouldn't have all kinds of unexplained problems with their quads.

No one has it figured out yet.

 

[FlChamMom]

I'm with you on the plastic plants for a quarrintine cage- may not be everyone's opinion but I used all plastic when my panther had coccidia and it did allow me to completely sterilize everything after each course of trearment. I think it made a huge difference in his recovery. My regular cages have all live though, with a pothos in each.

That said, you have some very experienced, intelligent, educated keepers bringing up their concerns about humidity and husbandry requirements for this species. There has been a group on this forum dedicated to establishing breeding groups of quads to create a captive born population of the species. They aren't attacking you, but as you described yourself as a "chameleon rookie", they just want to make sure you have the benefit of all of their experience, mistakes and successes. I applaud your moxie- I have kept chams for five years and do not feel like I am ready for a breeding program... Good luck!

 

[BackwaterReptiles]

I don't think the chameleons fall for the shenanigans, but some tolerate it ok. I use my live plants like a guide as to how I'm doing. When they thrive, the chameleon usually does too.

That's a really interesting barometer (plant health), I had never thought about that before. I'm going to start paying attention and see if there's a correlation for me as well.

 

[Mike Fisher]

If I had it all figured out I wouldn't be asking for others to describe how they keep their quads and why. If the experts had it all figured out, they wouldn't have all kinds of unexplained problems with their quads.

No one has it figured out yet.

Asking for help from breeders with decades of experience and then arguing about the advice given might be a questionable practice.

 

[rshewfel]

Asking for help from breeders with decades of experience and then arguing about the advice given might be a questionable practice.

I do not believe her intention was to seek advise from the forum. It seems to me that her only intent is to let the members here know she finds the importer to be more credible.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I do not believe her intention was to seek advise from the forum. It seems to me that her only intent is to let the members here know she finds the importer to be more credible.

That is absolutely unfair and untrue.

I posted a series of pictures of my new quads and more experienced keepers commented on the plastic plants, suggesting live ones. I explained why I was using plastic plants in the cage of baby quads (12g to 15g). Some long-term keepers also use plastic plants when they have animals they are quarantining. (I repotted a little Parlor Palm and put it in the babies' cage, so the discussion wasn't for naught.)

I choose not to use Pothos and my experienced reptile vet also agrees with that choice. None of those decisions were made in a vacuum. I thought about it. I even bought a Pothos that I didn't put in any of the cages. None of those decisions are a big deal as far as husbandry practices go except the worry about hydration for the babies.

Those two issues, I believe, are the only issues about my husbandry practices that any long-term keeper might question.

As far as voicing some support for the importer, I don't want to go there, but a lot of libelous and slanderous statements were floating around spoken and written by people who had no direct knowledge of the importer or the deal in question. What I read about the importer on this forum was not my personal experience with him or his store, so I recounted my experiences. I thought this group was being very unfair to a small-business person. It took a very short period of time before the "quad collective" was satisfied with their deal. At least one member of the "quad collective" has purchased more specimens from this current shipment.

I have asked for and taken the advice of experienced quad keepers. Some of the advice I've been given has been quite different from other advice so I've put the opposing opinion out there for discussion.

When I bought my first quad, completely unaware of what I was buying--like most novice keepers--there never was a question of whether or not I would be able to set up an environment for this lovely animal to thrive and flourish in Texas. The temperatures in my house were never an issue. One experienced quad keeper was even talking of getting me a baby girl for my boy during our long phone conversations.

Suddenly when I have the audacity to up and buy four pairs of quads--the nerve of that uppity novice!--and expect to set them up in a breeding situation, they are doomed to die because I live in Texas. On and on and on and on.

I do understand that it might bother long-term keepers that a complete novice would put together a group of 4 pairs of wild-caught quads. People come and go in this hobby. You don't know me and you don't know much of my experience outside of chameleons.

I haven't paid my dues and that must really tick a lot of people off. Unfortunately, people paying dues are paying them with chameleon lives and for the sake of these lovely animals, I would much rather not learn the hard way. Silo building only hurts the animals.

You don't have to help me. You can make all the snarky comments you like. You can celebrate any failures I have. Will I succeed? I don't know, I'll give it my best shot and throw as much money as I need to at any problems to make them go away.

 

[fluxlizard]

A few thoughts-

Toxic plant lists for most animals are an extrapolation of existing known data based on research on other animals/species. This isn't my idea, this is what my avian vet (who has a large reptile practice as well) told me. He said that there was no research done.

I won't trust unscientific anecdotal evidence for something that could be unsafe.

Just to pick at your logic a bit- Your vet has admitted no research has been done on this for lizards. Which indicates that you are using his opinion based on his personal speculation from another family of animals. He does not have even have anectdotal evidence (in the rest of life known as personal experience) in his favor on the subject, let alone "facts". At least at this point, he only has a personal opinion based on guesswork. Not a scientific fact.

Just my opinion but my feeling is that someone's experience trumps someone's speculation.

Which is no big deal either way. My opinion is also that you won't burn in Hell if you choose not to use Pothos vines.

I eat chocolate, but it is toxic for many mammals. I am also a mammal. People at it before they could prove it wouldn't kill them, based on the anecdotal evidence from other people who ate it also.

Experience is not always a bad thing to rely on.

But like I said, I think it rather unimportant if you choose to use pothos or not.

"the hobby experiences frequent unexplained deaths and animals doing poorly for no known reason, with no post mortems after death.

Regardless of whether or not some of you have had chameleons live through stripping of a pothos plant, I have to wonder what causes those unexplained deaths that we so often read about. How many have post mortems done on their dead chameleons? I open up any chicken I have that dies (rare but it happens) and I go through the internal organs of anything I cull or slaughter to get a handle on the flock health. I don't see that being a common practice with reptile keepers.

Good practice. At some point you had a good poultry vet. My father was such a vet- he taught at the vet school and specialized in avian medicine. My brother is also a vet, and I grew up with many friends who were vets. In the 90s I had many chameleons (I bred veileds and panthers on a medium sized scale (over 1000 offspring per year), and dabbled with a fair number of other species like the quads where I was not keeping and breeding them consistently), many pothos vines, and still had access to my father.

We did many casual necropsies in those years, and sometimes I still do. Mainly to try and determine cause of sudden death (which is often not so successful as we did not ship stuff off to a lab) and also to assess general health (appearance of bones and organs- which of course is much easier in a casual situation). One reason my opinion on pothos is pretty strong- it was my chameleon plant of choice in those years as I used smaller indoor housing so they were perfect and bushy plants were not.

I think maybe your idea about unexplained deaths might be a little distorted vs reality when it comes to the more experienced keepers on the forums, but then again maybe not. I've never really thought about it or kept track of such comments here on the forums with the exception of large percentages of certain species where the offspring fail at a certain age being thought of as normal when that has not been my experience (species like jacksons).

But pothos vine vs something else and unexplained death vs explained and importers are knowledgable and good vs ignorant and sleezy is really sidetracked from what you were really wanting to do (I think) with this thread which is figure out for yourself a good plan for your quadricornis husbandry going forward by bouncing some thoughts and ideas off of more experienced keepers.

I haven't paid my dues and that must really tick a lot of people off.

I might be wrong, can't read minds, but I don't think that is it. I think those who have paid their dues did so with hard lessons for currency. They already know from hard and sometimes painful experience that confidence is often misplaced and hopes are often dashed. Confidence often leads to blindness and blindness results in a payment of dues with a hard lesson. I think your confident attitude and quick dismissal of their hard bought experience rubs them the wrong way. And then when they caution about it, your quick and confident dismissal of the need for caution rubs wrong again. Careful consideration and filing their experience away for future reference should you have to tweak your plans at some point might be a better approach.

OK- so back to the quad husbandry stuff-

Plastic vs real-

My opinion is a little different than most on this perhaps. I have tried all kinds of ways of raising babies. I started by raising them in tanks, moved to tubs, then small screen cages (about 14x14x30 and later 17x17x36) that were horizontally oriented and lately (since november) I've been using a full sized adult cage (2x2x3' high) for raising a small batch of baby jacksons. I've used potted pothos vines in small pots, I've used fake plants, In my big cage I'm using a potted shefflura bush, and for several years I used no plants at all for baby veileds, panthers, jacksons and melleri. I just took the small screen cages, placed them horizontal for more side to side space and to keep food items always near, and stuffed them literally full of twigs so all space inside was usable by the babies, removing some twigs to open a bit of space here and there from time to time as the babies grew.

There are pros and cons to each method I have used. I guess in the interest of keeping a long post somewhat under control I won't go into what those are for each. But I will say that water droplets seem to be available longer on live plants and the plants respirate creating humidity and the soil also provides humidity. All very positive points in their favor for humid loving species like quads. And I'll also say I don't think plastic plants fool anyone but the humans. Chameleons probably see them similarly to dead twigs. No scientific proof on that LOL. But they do provide some surface for water droplets that twigs do not.

I got rid of the plants after several years and went straight twigs for several years originally because the baby insects would hide under the pots and in the dirt. IMO based on observation, appetite, coloration, growth rate, etc baby chameleons that have never been on plants don't really know any different and don't care that they only have twigs. The jacksons and melleri that I have raised are both humid loving species- the melleri perhaps moreso than the jacksons. My solution here was to simply mist them 2x per day for 25-40 minutes depending on their response so they could tank up. Ambient humidity has never been a problem for me here in the current situation. Had it been, I would have put a humidifier in the room to raise the room humidity.

I have to say though, that now that I'm using live plants again for the baby jacksons after having taken a several year break from them that I do prefer the plants. In my situation, 10 minutes of mist earlyish in the day results in at least a few water droplets being available on the leaves of the plant the rest of the day. And I feel better knowing that plant is respirating for the lizards. And while they may not show signs of missing a plant if they have never had one, the baby chams definitely know what it is and how to use it for their needs (shelter and getting around) if they have a plant.

The main thing is that you have to be able to read your animals and what their needs are and then meet those needs somehow. If my babies were showing signs of stress by coloration, abnormal behavior (shyness or not moving about much) or appetite and growth rate, when I was using twigs only, I would have known and been able to correct by adding plants. If humidity was a problem or dehydration was a problem, I would have known and taken steps (add a humidifier to the room or water more frequently or using another method as well as perhaps live plants- remember I did not raise quads on twigs only- quads are probably going to dehydrate much faster than even melleri). For you- I think because you have not yet had 100s of baby chameleons to get to know what is normal and what is not, it is more important to err on the side of conservative husbandry that is as safe and proven as possible.

How to control humidity in an AC room.-

Last time I had this species I kept individuals in 29 gallon aquaria tanks. Nowadays there are better front opening glass lizard tanks. Such tanks hold humidity well, moreso when used with potted plants (which is how I used to keep chameleons in the early and mid 90s- in these tanks with 6" pots of pothos vines which then spread around the tank respirating everywhere on newspaper substrates, misting lightly 2x per day (no puddles only haze on glass and leaves) at which time the newspaper would first absorb some water then give off humidity as it dried out completely between mistings, and then I used drips and catch bowls for drinking water).Humidity is further improved if you pause a substrate. I kept and bred several species in this size tank. Now, I would recommend splurging and spending more for the largest front opening tanks you can afford- the lizards will spend their lives in there after all. The front opening tanks have better ventilation conditions- Honestly I don't think it is a big deal anyway after using glass aquaria quite successfully for many years, but it can't hurt, and aquaria are pains in the butt to get into as inevitably lights and drip cups are on the entrance.


See this article by Chris Anderson for piccys and information about keeping chameleons this way-

http://www.chameleonnews.com/10JulAndersonGlass.html

I would give that approach a try and then see how the humidity holds in the tanks in your situation.

 

[Dooley1]

Janet,

I know it can be frustrating when you are doing your best and feel disparaged. It has happened to all of us at one point or another. I do not think buying a group of WC quads is a "good" choice to start out, but you have them, and I hope you are successful so that we can all benefit. Pothos are fine, but whether you use them in your enclosures or not is unimportant as long as you use something suitable.

Honestly I was a bit discouraged to see you jump in with so many wild-caught animals, and I think that others probably were as well. You seem like you are doing your best though, and I know that others on here with experience will continue to help. Everyone has an ego, it is only natural. I think when we think about our intentions sometimes we realize they may not really be adding much to the conversation.

Having a vet helping you is a great start though!

I cannot add to the conversation about Texas. I live in Pennsylvania and always have. I don't really know how much of a struggle it would be to keep things cool and humid. I have a basement and that gives me an advantage.

This forum is great, and people like Laurie, Frank, Nick and Kyle and Amanda, Bill, Chris, and Mike are awesome! I'm sure I missed many. I think you'll enjoy it long-term.

Good luck

 

[Dooley1]

Great points and suggestions above my post. In fact, I've used glass enclosures as described for the past 3-4 years. Here are some photos from yesterday.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I think your confident attitude and quick dismissal of their hard bought experience rubs them the wrong way. And then when they caution about it, your quick and confident dismissal of the need for caution rubs wrong again.

Well said.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Great points and suggestions above my post. In fact, I've used glass enclosures as described for the past 3-4 years. Here are some photos from yesterday.

Beautiful enclosures. I'd love to switch over to glass fronts like that. I'm pretty heavily invested in screen enclosures, all naturalistic like yours. I do the leaf substrate too. Amazing how low maintenance a setup like this can be isn't it?

 

[jajeanpierre]

A few thoughts-


Which is no big deal either way. My opinion is also that you won't burn in Hell if you choose not to use Pothos vines.

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I wish I knew how to take parts of it and separate it into multiple quotes as you did mine. Instead, I'll try to copy and paste my comments under yours in blue. I hope it works.

The Pothos and the plastic plants--As you say, I won't burn in Hell for not using one and using the other. People commented about the choice of plastic--no, commented isn't the right word: most told me I was doing it wrong--and I explained my (thought-out) rationale for my choice. Whether you agree or not, it really isn't the end of the world. Now, having said that and keeping the babies on plastic plants since they came February 5th, I agree, the hydration on plastic is an issue and I just went out and bought them a spider plant and this morning put in a well-washed Parlor Palm. The others all have real plants except where I want more cover for them and can't find a plant to buy or get a plant up there. I also bought the male gracilior a 40" hibiscus I found at a nursery 40 miles away.



Experience is not always a bad thing to rely on.

But like I said, I think it rather unimportant if you choose to use pothos or not.


But pothos vine vs something else and unexplained death vs explained and importers are knowledgable and good vs ignorant and sleezy is really sidetracked from what you were really wanting to do (I think) with this thread which is figure out for yourself a good plan for your quadricornis husbandry going forward by bouncing some thoughts and ideas off of more experienced keepers.

That is exactly why I come here with so many questions and why I bring up other differing opinions. I don't always agree with some of the thoughts I bring up, but someone with a lot more experience than I have has either told me or I've read it somewhere. None of these are my original ideas. My offering a differing opinion is a way of opening up the conversation.


I might be wrong, can't read minds, but I don't think that is it. I think those who have paid their dues did so with hard lessons for currency. They already know from hard and sometimes painful experience that confidence is often misplaced and hopes are often dashed. Confidence often leads to blindness and blindness results in a payment of dues with a hard lesson. I think your confident attitude and quick dismissal of their hard bought experience rubs them the wrong way. And then when they caution about it, your quick and confident dismissal of the need for caution rubs wrong again. Careful consideration and filing their experience away for future reference should you have to tweak your plans at some point might be a better approach.

Confident attitude? I am confident that I can create a good habitat for these special chameleons because I'll do whatever it takes, but I don't think I am confident I yet know what that habitat should be. I am certainly NOT confident that I can read my chameleons and just know when things are not right. I will learn it, and I will do everything I possibly can to learn those lessons on living lizards, not by missing something and ending up learning with sick or dying lizards.

When I bought my first wild-caught quad in December, and I started reading as much as I could about the species and asking a kazillion questions here, there was no concern for the temperatures in my house. When I read how cool they like it especially at night, I spoke to two of the most experienced quad people on this forum, asking about it and neither were concerned. Suddenly when I've gone all uppity on everyone and bought so many--omg wild caughts--one of those same experts writes that no one can possibly keep a quad alive in Texas. Now you have to remember that this same person was talking a month earlier of sending me a baby female for my first quad so that I could have a pair to try to breed. Why suddenly did my ambient air-conditioned house temperatures that were fine to breed quads in before I got all uppity suddenly morph into quad-killing temps? I will not trust that person's advice. I can't. I do not believe that person has my, but much more importantly, my quads' best interests at heart. Do you see why I am so ticked off? Expert opinion doesn't change simply because of a change in some emotional state of the expert.

Now, I do think that the experienced keepers are concerned I've bought so many wild caughts and it is a pretty valid concern. Wild caughts are my preference for their genetic diversity. My preference is to have four or five pairs of animals that are not related to anything currently in the US. Are they more problematic? Certainly, but if I am intending to set up a breeding program, I want new genetic material.

OK- so back to the quad husbandry stuff-

Thank you!

How to control humidity in an AC room.-

I don't think humidity is going to be an issue. They will all be housed in DragonStrand breeder cages which have three solid sides, screen top and front. They will all be furnished with lots of live plants. I will have an automatic misting system set up for them (AquaZamp). I have immediate concerns about them now. They came so unexpectedly and the cages are back ordered for a little while still. I have them housed in Reptibreezes and am hand misting. It is a labor intensive and problematic set up. I don't mind the labor--it's the problems I'm worried about. I WILL make it work, but I am worried. I spend most of my day running from cage to cage, misting and checking (but not bothering them other than misting around them). It is quite cool and humid here, so it isn't the problem it could have been if I suddenly had seven wild caughts to acclimate in the summer.

I think DragonStrand caging can be ordered with plexiglass doors. I suspect I could modify my cages and buy a bunch of doors for them if I can't deal with the humidity levels, but to be honest, I think I'll be okay. People in Southern California are keeping them and I get substantially more rain than they do--almost three times their average amount.

If they need the temps lower than the 78F I keep my house at in the summer--especially at night--I can always buy an a/c unit for the window of my office where they are housed.

I really appreciate your sharing your experiences with me. Thank you.

 

[Dooley1]

Beautiful enclosures. I'd love to switch over to glass fronts like that. I'm pretty heavily invested in screen enclosures, all naturalistic like yours. I do the leaf substrate too. Amazing how low maintenance a setup like this can be isn't it?

I love them Mike, and considering the species you're working with, they may be perfect. I've had equal success with screen and glass, but like the look of naturally planted enclosures personally, even if the chameleons don't care.

Maintenance is very easy with this type of enclosure once you take the little things into consideration. Do you use ABG mix for your planting substrate? It drains great