No point in buying from breeders

[reefercheefer]

The OP's approach did nothing to impress me or win over my support. Actually all it did was put an asterix in my mind that I would never want to buy a cham from him. /shrug

Cost of cham babies = profit margin you want to place on the sale + cost of feeding + utilities used + equipment/supplies + (sum of your time to hatch/care for the cham's X what is your time worth) *excluding the cost of any vet visits*

BTW: 50k a year is not a lot of money and hardly warrants mentioning it in a post none the less. But I guess to someone of a relatively young age it may seem impressive. My 5yr old gets that way over a dollar also.

If your looking to alienate the community and turn people off and raise questions about your breeding ethics, SUCCESS! Had you choose your delivery method more and put more thought into the topic and arguments from both sides you may not off come off as arrogant and annoying as you did.

I never said 50k is alot or isnt but i am comfortable where I am currently at. Only reason i brought it up is becuase you all seem soooo concerned on how i will afford the millions and millions in feeders OH MY! well thats how.

 

[pssh]

All you've done IMO, is prove that you are getting ahead of yourself, dont properly take care of your (at least) WC animals, seem to think very little of others, and make me put you on my do not buy from list. Your practices are not worth my money and I wouldnt want to buy from you.

I've spoken to all the big breeders I've bought from and they are always willing to talk and help if I need it. I dont know who others have been talking to but I wouldn't buy from them if they wouldnt talk to me beforehand.

 

[KarmaChameleon1337]

Just throwing this in there, you're going to have to tell the people you sell to that the parents were not dewormed. That is a big deterant, so goodluck selling.

 

[mrfixit01]

I think the answers to your questions are fairly obvious. You are a knowledgeable amateur keeper who is breeding his first clutch as a hobby. The people who are in it for business as well as a keen interest in Chameleons need to make money from it or they won't be able to stay in business. The standard recommendations by people on this forum are not very often meant for people who have kept lizards since they were in diapers, but for people to have a good idea of possible difficulties before trying something. I've not seen much hating of breeding success on here at all.......
You have successfully kept wc Chams and got them to breed, but as yet you haven't spent the time and effort raising them to saleable age, finding buyers, all the extra stuff and hassle of admin for a business that adds price to a 'product'.
You are not worried about staying in business and making a living from this, so you talk flippantly about how much you earn and how little you could sell the chams for.
I don't complain that Coca Cola sells their beverages for more than it would cost me to make it at home. Part of the reason they get away with it is that there just aren't many people willing to put in the time and effort to make cheaper beverages for everybody - guess why?
I do agree that the 'pedigree' animal thing can get pretty silly but if people are willing to pay a bit extra for market hype then fine by me. It's the long-term possibility of inbreeding health problems and the discredited philosophy of racial superiority that I worry about, not the price

In a nut shell, well said Dave. Thanks for putting all the comments in perspective. Whew!

 

[reefercheefer]

That said, good reasons to be careful with WC chameleons:
1. Parasites.
- They may have been fine with their parasites in the wild but the move into captivity may weaken their system and allow those parasites to really tax the animal.
- Now the animal has laid eggs; not just a stressful event but a very taxing physical demand, which may also weaken the animal and allow the parasites to cause a lot of harm.
2. Acclimated?
- If your chameleons haven't been in captivity long you may not be successful in acclimating them to captivity long-term. They may be fine for now but the continuous stress of the dramatic change may send them spiraling the drain in a couple months.
3. Quarantined?
- How do you know that these new chameleons don't just have parasites, but something like a disease? If you don't quarantine these girls for a few months you're putting your other animals at risk as well. Allowing a new animal to come into contact with all your others immediately doesn't show a lot of responsibility.
4. Are the females even the locale you think they are?
- It's easy to sell whatever females you want and label them to fit a demand. By using WC females you now have the responsibility to grow out those babies to determine whether you are selling Ambilobes or not. Because it is unethical to knowingly sell a panther as a different locale than what it is. I have my doubts about your male being an Ambilobe at all, but that's a different matter altogether.

At the end of the day, do whatever you want. No one is forcing anyone to buy a chameleon for $300, or charge that much for one. You can find panthers for around $100 if you look long enough. It just depends what you're looking for. I just recommend reading up on a lot more chameleon husbandry before going further with this hobby.[/QUOTE]

Everything you said is ifs and maybe and what ifs.

1. im not selling the females. The worms you are worried about are not transfered to the eggs.

2. I will give you an update *IF* they die.

3. The male i introduced to one female is also wild caught. The other one laid WC eggs.

4. Yes the females were sold to my as ambilobes by a reputable florida breeder. If they turn out not to be then thats a year ahead of us. If you are considerned about my male being ambilobe well then i can give you a number of pictures showing all the colors he changes and being the expert you are tell me what I and the seller were so blind to see.

 

[mrfixit01]

How much did you pay for your wild caughts>? Where did you buy them? How are you for sure the females are the same locale as your male? Have they been proven yet? If not you will probably own these babies even longer than you want to prove them. Otherwise you will have a hard time selling them to many of the ENTHUSIAST here on the forums.

Good luck with your clutches but your thread title isnt exactly a good choice for what you are currently working towards....

Edit: I just realized what was said. Are we really frit fratting over a 75 dollar difference from yours to a IYO a over exaggerated breeders price? lol, i cant participate in this thread any longer...

Ataraxia, well he got what he wanted, free advertising. I hope it made you all want to do business with him right away!

 

[BocaJan]

I found this thread very useful, actually. Now I (and hopefully others) know to avoid this person's business like the plague when he starts selling. I think that's either $1 or $300 better spent on someone else's chameleons.

That said, good reasons to be careful with WC chameleons:
1. Parasites.
- They may have been fine with their parasites in the wild but the move into captivity may weaken their system and allow those parasites to really tax the animal.
- Now the animal has laid eggs; not just a stressful event but a very taxing physical demand, which may also weaken the animal and allow the parasites to cause a lot of harm.
2. Acclimated?
- If your chameleons haven't been in captivity long you may not be successful in acclimating them to captivity long-term. They may be fine for now but the continuous stress of the dramatic change may send them spiraling the drain in a couple months.
3. Quarantined?
- How do you know that these new chameleons don't just have parasites, but something like a disease? If you don't quarantine these girls for a few months you're putting your other animals at risk as well. Allowing a new animal to come into contact with all your others immediately doesn't show a lot of responsibility.
4. Are the females even the locale you think they are?
- It's easy to sell whatever females you want and label them to fit a demand. By using WC females you now have the responsibility to grow out those babies to determine whether you are selling Ambilobes or not. Because it is unethical to knowingly sell a panther as a different locale than what it is. I have my doubts about your male being an Ambilobe at all, but that's a different matter altogether.

At the end of the day, do whatever you want. No one is forcing anyone to buy a chameleon for $300, or charge that much for one. You can find panthers for around $100 if you look long enough. It just depends what you're looking for. I just recommend reading up on a lot more chameleon husbandry before going further with this hobby.

I agree with your #4 Olimpia. I had a clutch of eggs from a wild caught female ( I didn't get the female ) and when they hatched out I couldn't tell if they were ambilobes or ambanjas until the babies were 6 months. Some of the breeders on the forums even tried to help but we just couldn't be sure. Just one of the issues with wild caughts. So, I had to house my chams until I was sure of what I had before I could sell them. 6 months of feeding and caring for them was OK because it was fun to watch them mature and change with each shed, but it sure didn't make them quick sales. Only one of the things that happen when you have wild caughts.

 

[reefercheefer]

How much did you pay for your wild caughts>? Where did you buy them? How are you for sure the females are the same locale as your male? Have they been proven yet? If not you will probably own these babies even longer than you want to prove them. Otherwise you will have a hard time selling them to many of the ENTHUSIAST here on the forums.

Good luck with your clutches but your thread title isnt exactly a good choice for what you are currently working towards....

Edit: I just realized what was said. Are we really frit fratting over a 75 dollar difference from yours to a IYO a over exaggerated breeders price? lol, i cant participate in this thread any longer...

I payed 490 shipped for both females. got them from Jim at "the chameleon company" i guess i have to just trust they are the same. If you are doubting his way then i guess you address your concerns to him.

realize its more than a 75$ difference. realize i payed 250$ shipped for a fresh blood, ready to breed female. I was being nice saying breeders online charge 275$ plus shipping FOR A BABY! Ive seen worse to the upwards of 400 FOR A BABY.

 

[reefercheefer]

I agree with your #4 Olimpia. I had a clutch of eggs from a wild caught female ( I didn't get the female ) and when they hatched out I couldn't tell if they were ambilobes or ambanjas until the babies were 6 months. Some of the breeders on the forums even tried to help but we just couldn't be sure. Just one of the issues with wild caughts. So, I had to house my chams until I was sure of what I had before I could sell them. 6 months of feeding and caring for them was OK because it was fun to watch them mature and change with each shed, but it sure didn't make them quick sales. Only one of the things that happen when you have wild caughts.

I plan to keep the WC line chams i produce as long as possible with out a doubt. I eliminate the risks that come with purchasing WCs again. Ill have all the breeding males and females that i could want. Its nice being able to wait and see how they turn out. With all the shat you guys talk now and doubt you send my way just watch me do it. Just like with the very first thread i posted on here 2 months ago expressing my want and willingness to breed.

 

[KarmaChameleon1337]

I plan to keep the WC line chams i produce as long as possible with out a doubt. I eliminate the risks that come with purchasing WCs again. Ill have all the breeding males and females that i could want. Its nice being able to wait and see how they turn out. With all the shat you guys talk now and doubt you send my way just watch me do it. Just like with the very first thread i posted on here 2 months ago expressing my want and willingness to breed.

But, you said you were going to sell them at 2 months.

 

[reefercheefer]

But, you said you were going to sell them at 2 months.

Yea 2-3 months for the ones I bred. The WC babies i plan to keep as many as i can or try to keep them in the chicago area with people i know so i can see how they turn out and keep the possibilty of using them as studs if some turn out to be spectacular.

Also you said I had to tell the buyer that the wild caught females were not dewormed. Any parasites it may or not have are not transfered to eggs. I may get it screened sometime before the hatchlings are ready to sell if i feel there is a need to. I dont know how old these females are and how long they will last so if they do die i dont know if it was something i did or didnt do. It could just as well as be of old age or a worn out body. only way to be sure about anything is to grow them up for your selves. which i plan to do. Just becuase i dont buy 400$ babies does not mean i have bad chams. Understand that i didnt go that route becuase i dont want my chams to be descendents of any other breeders chams. I want my own ish.

 

[Olimpia]

Everything you said is ifs and maybe and what ifs.

1. im not selling the females. The worms you are worried about are not transfered to the eggs.

2. I will give you an update *IF* they die.

3. The male i introduced to one female is also wild caught. The other one laid WC eggs.

4. Yes the females were sold to my as ambilobes by a reputable florida breeder. If they turn out not to be then thats a year ahead of us. If you are considerned about my male being ambilobe well then i can give you a number of pictures showing all the colors he changes and being the expert you are tell me what I and the seller were so blind to see.

Sure, your females may be fine, or they may also end up sick or dead. It doesn't make the concerns any less real, and responsible breeders take the time to make sure that their stock is healthy and ready before breeding. The health of the offspring depends heavily on the health of the mother at the time of egg-laying - if she was weak, sick, or otherwise compromised your hatchlings may not be as strong as those from a healthy and fit female. This isn't just speculation, it's collective experience and a lot of common sense, too. And what a lot of other very qualified people are trying to tell you. You know, in case I'm not experienced enough, with 15-16 years of experience with exotic animals in vet clinics, rehab hospitals, and university research labs.

Sure, I'd love to have you send me photos of him - my email is on my profile. Or better yet, make a thread about him. I know I'm not the only one, since on your other threads several other people think he looks Ambanja or not fully Ambilobe. I bet even Jim at the Cham Co would weigh in if you emailed him photos, he's got a very experienced eye.

 

[allencg101]

I'm fairly new to chameleon breeding but not new to reality. I'm just seeing if I'm not the only one that doesn't hype over buying baby chams for outrageous prices like 275$ plus shipping just because some guy in Cali or Florida is the one producing it. They make is seem like their chameleons are so special because they came from a certain line. I understand that you look at the sire and you want an exact replica of that cham. When more than often i seen pics of grown up babies from name brand breeders that don't look that great at all. That is why I started off with 1.2 wild caught ambilobes for my breeding project to produce my own unique blood line. Also I feel that as friendly as everyone seems on here complementing on your chams, some individuals hate to see others have success is breeding and go on and on about how hard it is, how much it costs etc. If anyone feels the same please share.

P.S if you think im bashing. I am.

To me a healthy chameleon is a healthy chameleon no matter who you get it from. Power to the little guy.

i said it before and ill say it again and again chams are like tattoos if you want quality you gotta pay for it!!! cheap tats are not good good tats are cheap. our sponsered breeders are awesome people who know their stuff and have done it for years and they have something called a reputation that wasn't given but earned so be but hurt over it if you wish thats your choice. but i will always go with repsectable breeders who know what they are doing hence why i will never buy a pet from an expo unless there is a breeder there that i have read or know for fact know what they are doing and now blowing smoke up your a$$ but some people just gotta learn the hard way and thats just fine!!!

 

[Cainschams]

It's taking care of LIVING animals. This isn't golf. You can't just lose a ball and buy a new one.

Actually, yes you can.

 

[KarmaChameleon1337]

Actually, yes you can.

You can, but it's not ethical or a good idea to keep replacing dead animals.

 

[shaunaroxanne]

If you don't believe there is value in a good breeder, I dare you to buy your $2,500 Parsons from someone who just got him off the boat.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Wow. I dislike threads like this because they remind me of how many ignorant [insert rude word here] some chameleon keepers are. People who IMHO probably should not have chameleons at all, much less be permitted to breed them (or any living creature).

but on the flip side, Happy to see that there are also some intelliegent folks diong their best to inform or at least over-ride the ignorant one(s).

 

[reefercheefer]

If you don't believe there is value in a good breeder, I dare you to buy your $2,500 Parsons from someone who just got him off the boat.

Double dare me, I look forward to that day.

 

[shaunaroxanne]

Double dare me, I look forward to that day.

Me too! Who knows, maybe you will discover that the secret to success in breeding Parsons is to buy them illegally like that, have no fecals done, and just throw two together. Let us know how that works out for you

 

[reefercheefer]

Thankfully we live in a free land and I can do what I want and your say is only heard on a specific reptile breeds forum page. Love how everyone bashes just like I said. Oh boo whoo I didn't screen 2 female wc panthers. What's going to happen? Nothing.you guys are Livin on ifs and maybes