Panther Locale I.D. Please
- Thread starter Todnedo
- Start date
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TreelionsUK
New Member
That chameleon really could be any of the north east locales,there is no way you can say what he is yet!
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
I will take wagers in the form of chameleons. So, I say Masoala...if you think it is anything different than Masoala...you don't even have to name the locale...I will take that bet. No money wagers...only chameleons please 
-chris
-chris
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Todnedo and others
Trust that all animals from a given locale do not show the same colors at the same size/age, or when agitated Me thinks if you had bred (bread ... LOL) and raised several hundred you would know this.
No, they died. It is my opinion that it takes a much higher threshold in terms of quantity to sustain captive propagation than most know. In the meantime, extended captive propagation relies heavily on WC blood infusion. Tyler can certainly lament with me how the market for certain locales died earlier in the decade, as demand for others rose. To add insult to injury, with a quota system in place, and the influence of the new (now old) government that took over in Mada in 2002, quotas were awarded in smaller slices. It made no sense for an exporter in Mada to fill a quota of 50 animals with Tamataves when they could now get twice as much money by shipping Ambilobes. In a period of three years, Tamataves went from being the most exported locale, along with St. Marie's (Nosy Boraha), to one of the least exported. And that meant an end to effective captive propagation. What was here in the U.S. essentially died off, although I am sure there are a few left round with roots pre-2005, which is when I stopped working with them. I was having a tough time getting $90 each for them, while Ambilobes were scoring 3 times that much. We call that a "no-brainer" in economics.
Now, a few are starting to come in again, as demand will always swing a bit.
Good post Tyler. Hope all is well.
Trust that all animals from a given locale do not show the same colors at the same size/age, or when agitated Me thinks if you had bred (bread ... LOL) and raised several hundred you would know this.
No, they died. It is my opinion that it takes a much higher threshold in terms of quantity to sustain captive propagation than most know. In the meantime, extended captive propagation relies heavily on WC blood infusion. Tyler can certainly lament with me how the market for certain locales died earlier in the decade, as demand for others rose. To add insult to injury, with a quota system in place, and the influence of the new (now old) government that took over in Mada in 2002, quotas were awarded in smaller slices. It made no sense for an exporter in Mada to fill a quota of 50 animals with Tamataves when they could now get twice as much money by shipping Ambilobes. In a period of three years, Tamataves went from being the most exported locale, along with St. Marie's (Nosy Boraha), to one of the least exported. And that meant an end to effective captive propagation. What was here in the U.S. essentially died off, although I am sure there are a few left round with roots pre-2005, which is when I stopped working with them. I was having a tough time getting $90 each for them, while Ambilobes were scoring 3 times that much. We call that a "no-brainer" in economics.
Now, a few are starting to come in again, as demand will always swing a bit.
Good post Tyler. Hope all is well.
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
You know this is like listening to politicians, going round and round a question and then criticizing someone even though they say they are sure...yet you are sure that you are unsure.
I am tired of listening to this years of experience fluff, I will put my company and all my chameleons up against the fact that the chameleon in the picture is a Masoala and will end up looking like the Masoala on my breeder page.
Thats all I have to say, disagree that it is Masoala that doesn't bother me and I will listen with open ears, belittle me in the process of trying to make yourself look better, that gets under my skin. *not necessarily aimed at the post before this*
-chris
I am tired of listening to this years of experience fluff, I will put my company and all my chameleons up against the fact that the chameleon in the picture is a Masoala and will end up looking like the Masoala on my breeder page.
Thats all I have to say, disagree that it is Masoala that doesn't bother me and I will listen with open ears, belittle me in the process of trying to make yourself look better, that gets under my skin. *not necessarily aimed at the post before this*
-chris
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
I didn't want it to be, because I am working with a lot of them right now and I thought I was the only person in the US working with them. But after further examining I turned away from Maro and came to the realization its Maso and I am not the only one with baby Masoala. :-\ But I guess it isn't all that bad, I can diversify my blood even more now. But yea kent...I am positive on this one.
-chris
-chris
Thanks for the better explanation Jim, that's what I was getting at. The GPS locators have stopped working on the East locale panthers that I sold in the 2003-2005 range, so I seemed to have lost track of them.
Am I the only one that thinks this is completely ridiculous? How do you go from thinking you have a monopoly on a "locale" to seeing a photo of an uncolored young panther and being surprised that someone somehow was able to get one of "your locale?" Did a shipment of one animal come in that you were unaware of and go straight to his house? Either that, or you're still "inventing locales (yes, I said it)," or accepting that an oddball looking panther can be called something that it's not. On top of all this, it was a 100% Maro in your opinion, just yesterday.
Not sure who is claiming to use their years of experience in this conversation besides you. Nobody else but you has claimed to know what it is with any accuracy. I certainly have nothing to prove here. More than any sponsor of this site, I could care less what the chameleon forum people think about me. When you have tried to discredited me (and others) in the past, all I have ever done is correct your bad information. Nobody wants to take you up on your bet because nobody cares that much. You're the only one claiming "scientist" here with your intricate knowledge of the Malagasy landscape and weather patterns. You're still my boy, though, Chris, and I'll buy you your alcohol if I make it to Daytona, even if it turns Ambilobe on us LOL.
Am I the only one that thinks this is completely ridiculous? How do you go from thinking you have a monopoly on a "locale" to seeing a photo of an uncolored young panther and being surprised that someone somehow was able to get one of "your locale?" Did a shipment of one animal come in that you were unaware of and go straight to his house? Either that, or you're still "inventing locales (yes, I said it)," or accepting that an oddball looking panther can be called something that it's not. On top of all this, it was a 100% Maro in your opinion, just yesterday.
Not sure who is claiming to use their years of experience in this conversation besides you. Nobody else but you has claimed to know what it is with any accuracy. I certainly have nothing to prove here. More than any sponsor of this site, I could care less what the chameleon forum people think about me. When you have tried to discredited me (and others) in the past, all I have ever done is correct your bad information. Nobody wants to take you up on your bet because nobody cares that much. You're the only one claiming "scientist" here with your intricate knowledge of the Malagasy landscape and weather patterns. You're still my boy, though, Chris, and I'll buy you your alcohol if I make it to Daytona, even if it turns Ambilobe on us LOL.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Question for Todnedo....
So Todnedo....what's the deal with the male in the picture? Did you buy him or is he someone else's? What did the source of this male say or think he was? I'm curious as to why you are wondering what he is in the first place. I did once buy what was advertised to be a WC Sambava and it ended up being a WC Tamatave. I understand that what one thinks one is getting is not always what one ends up having. And what a surprise it is to me to find out that I now own a Masoala. He was sold to me as an Ambilobe and looked just like the male pictured at the same age. Wink, wink
So Todnedo....what's the deal with the male in the picture? Did you buy him or is he someone else's? What did the source of this male say or think he was? I'm curious as to why you are wondering what he is in the first place. I did once buy what was advertised to be a WC Sambava and it ended up being a WC Tamatave. I understand that what one thinks one is getting is not always what one ends up having. And what a surprise it is to me to find out that I now own a Masoala. He was sold to me as an Ambilobe and looked just like the male pictured at the same age. Wink, wink
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
That one was specifically for you Tyler. And if you don't have anything to prove why are you only showing up when I post. My last classified and now this. Apparently I do have something to prove, people like yourself give me no credit and belittle me every post. Yea you worked with them in the past...that means nothing. The people can be doing things for year and it doesn't mean they are good at it.
So I will bet my company that I am right...I have taken painstaking efforts observing, question, and speaking to others about locality and it is something I take pride in. You can have all the other locales Tyler, if you think I know so little then you have a much higher percentage to be right. I will put everything on the line, because I am 100%. Steve asked for an ID...I gave him the correct one and you doubt me...so, that doesn't bother me...but don't belittle me on what I know.
Chris
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Chris, as noted by Tyler, you were the first to raise the expereince issue in Post # 9, and then stated the bit over-the-top conclusion above in Post # 11. I take no offense, but you did make it the issue that you now complain about.
To stake your entire business on this ID might be viewed as rather extreme by a few of us. I know many of the posters here who have counseled patience to Todnedo, and based on what I know to be their extensive experience, realize they have a good basis for such patience.
Catherine, I guess I may have sold you some Masoala's, or Mombassa's, or Mumbo-Jumbo's in the past, and didn't know it. My most humble apologies.
I give credit where credit is due. The last locale you were unable to figure out where it was from while at the same time explaining how you knew the Madagascar map better than anyone (took time and spoke to people and take great pride in knowing the cities is what you said), and you were way off on where it was even located. It didn't even show up on Google (unless you spelled it differently, and then it was far from where you said it was) besides pointing to your website. What credit do you expect go get? You invent locales, or accept the inventing of locales based on the way a panther looks. You throw a fit (to me) when other people say or show bad info, and you call them out on it, yet you do the same thing.
I spoke out this time because you don't seem to know that Tamataves and Maros were much more popular 4 years ago than they are now, yet you present it like they never have been. The people that get and earn my credit (for what it's worth) are the people that are collecting high end panthers, breeding them on a small scale, and not posting 40 times a week acting like they know everything. There's plenty of small scale cham breeders out there that I think are doing a good job, who I would buy from far sooner than someone who showed up a year or two ago defining what everything is.
Again, nobody cares to take you on your bet. I don't want your chams, even if my guess is right. It's not worth having to deal with crickets again to me.
TreelionsUK
New Member
Come on lads,this is stupid...You won't know forsure...unless some one knows somthing about there origin..or until they develop more, simple as!!
Ive had baby,sambava,tamatave,diego,and the ampiskiana and they all look the bloody same until around 10 months
Just chill,we'll all see what it turns out to be if they keep posing the pics
Ive had baby,sambava,tamatave,diego,and the ampiskiana and they all look the bloody same until around 10 months
Just chill,we'll all see what it turns out to be if they keep posing the pics
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
Tyler this is the last time I am picking on you and the last time I will post on this thread...you wore me out, I am tired. But, you know that first picture of the Tamatave (the green guy)...that is the one you said was Ambanja 2 years ago in Daytona from Snakes at Sunset. I told you I thought it was Tamatave and you didn't believe me. So, honestly it is hard for me to swallow you telling me you hatched and raised a lot of this locale. I have only been really looking at the locales for 4 years and I notice huge differences between east (such as Ambanja) and west (such as Tamatave) locales.
As far as locales...I associate a name with look, not a longitude and latitude. My apologies for thinking Ampiskiana is south of Sambava when it is north...my bad.
Ohh and here is a link to what they will look like http://www.cleanlinechameleons.com/masoala.php
Good day sir!
As far as locales...I associate a name with look, not a longitude and latitude. My apologies for thinking Ampiskiana is south of Sambava when it is north...my bad.
Ohh and here is a link to what they will look like http://www.cleanlinechameleons.com/masoala.php
Good day sir!
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
So Mr. Drama.....where did you get him and what was he supposed to be? What do you think he is? Inquiring minds want to know.....
And Jim......The male I have that looked like the pictures from Todnedo (old and newer ones) came from someone other than you. I would never think to question or joke about the locale of any of the many chams I have gotten from you over the years. Trust is earned and you earned mine
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Catherine,
Trust me. You can joke about my stuff anytime It was all in humor as I saw it ! Got some Fuddy-Duddies I'm about to post in the Classifieds, btw
Trust me. You can joke about my stuff anytime
It was all in humor as I saw it ! Got some Fuddy-Duddies I'm about to post in the Classifieds, btw
reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
so not only one person has bread east coast chams, or the rare chams in general.
breeding is one thing, but how many people have cared enough to actually meticulously study them, and their subtle differences in traits?
jim, tyler,
I have no idea one way or the other, im not trying to sway things one way or the other, you have both been good to me on this forum.
A simple yes or no please, in all honesty since they were common back then as you say, When you worked with the locales in question, did you make it a point to study them and the subtle differences in traits ?
as much as chris is saying has?
east coast chams, or the rare chams in general.breeding is one thing, but how many people have cared enough to actually meticulously study them, and their subtle differences in traits?
jim, tyler,
I have no idea one way or the other, im not trying to sway things one way or the other, you have both been good to me on this forum.
A simple yes or no please, in all honesty since they were common back then as you say, When you worked with the locales in question, did you make it a point to study them and the subtle differences in traits ?
as much as chris is saying has?
westcoastchameleons
New Member
Lets settle this drama with an online battle between Chris and Tyler...In Fight Night Round 4! Create your characters and lets see what happens
-Jake
-Jake
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