Panther M 2 Years Old - Something off

[naterowley]

Chameleons don’t close their eyes ever during the day unless they are sick or so very stressed beyond their limits that they just shut down and wait to be eaten. Maybe I anthropomorphize, but I like to ease slowly into reducing diets. I think of it like us having a 7 course meal every day and then all of a sudden just being given a pb&j. I still think just switching the supplements now is a good idea. With the Arcadia ones being in baggies, you don’t know expiration dates or even confirmation of what they are.

Sorry I didnt put in the reply, the Arcadia ones are not expired they have 2024 expirations, the ones I was given when taking care over the care for him about 2 months ago were in the baggies.

Thanks for the eye thing, I don't always know wether to take advice as super literal or like yeah of course they will blink or if they briefly close it?


To clarify I am using Arcadia supplement now. I was given 3 supplements, she called them "calcium", d3 and multivitamin, the only one that wasn't in a baggie was the calcium and it's zoo med repti calcium
repti calcium

Sorry about the confusion

 

[Beman]

Today, he has been moving around to diff spots all through his enclosure, he's in a diff spot while I check on him every hour or so from a distance (im working from home to monitor him) eyes are alert and opening some, way more than yesterday. He has had his eyes closed while basking but when I walked in the room he opens the eyes. The right one is still looking painful to move around. Overall a lot more lively from yesterday. But still closing his eyes but less.

The previous owner gave me small sample supplements to start out in baggies, the only one with a name is a white "repti calcium" for the primary supplement. I've been doing the earth pro a every feeding but the feedings I do the other two supplements on, with the feeding schedule it's been alternating every other weekend the Calcium Pro MG and then Revitalize D3 the opposite. I hope I explained it okay, the feeding schedules and supplements aren't easy to type.

Do you think that I can just SWITCH to the 3 feeders, 3 days a week in his current state?

Also a random question I never really could find an answer to, when under the basking do chameleons close their eyes like other reptiles? My others do, but I've been hyper sensitive to the eye closing so I never know if im reading too literally in to the if the eyes are closed it's bad.

Everyone's help has been greatly appreciated and I look forward to trying all these suggestions! Any other suggestions for enclosure? I feel like I need another plant for more coverage but he doesn't go down to bottom half of his enclosure not much at all.

Thanks again and I appreciate you welcoming to this community.

If he were mine I would start the food intake reduction. Overweight chams deal with multiple health issues including gout and renal failure. Their organs simply have no place when the fat pads around them are obese.

Here is my write up on Arcadia Supplement use based on what they recommend.
So arcadia is a 3 product system done in an 8 feed cycle. This is why you want to chart it on a calendar. It is in the following rotation and you stay in that order no matter how many feeding days are skipped.

EP-A 1st feeding
EP-A 2nd feeding
EP-A 3rd feeding
Calmg 4th feeding
EP-A 5th feeding
EP-A 6th feeding
EP-A 7th feeding
Revitalize D3 8th feeding
Cycle starts again from the beginning.

Arcadia revitalize is your multivitamin. It has very low levels of D3 and A so you have to ensure that UVB is spot on. Now you could swap the other direction.... Use the repashy supercal NoD as your everyday and then pull in the arcadia Revitalize D3. Like I said this one has very low levels of fat soluble vitamins. Then use it 2 times a month. But you still want to make sure that your UVB bulb, fixture and distances are checked.


Hopefully the person did not give you calcium with D3 for daily use. over supplementation of fat soluble vitamins can cause multiple issues. Lethargy, lack of appetite and problems with bones because of the excess D3. If this is part of his issue going on then this is something that can take a month to start seeing a change. Because these get stored in the tissues and do not flush like water soluble vitamins.


I would try the longer morning misting when he is awake. If he has something stuck it the eye this will help him to clean the turrets to get it out.

 

[naterowley]

If he were mine I would start the food intake reduction. Overweight chams deal with multiple health issues including gout and renal failure. Their organs simply have no place when the fat pads around them are obese.

Here is my write up on Arcadia Supplement use based on what they recommend.
So arcadia is a 3 product system done in an 8 feed cycle. This is why you want to chart it on a calendar. It is in the following rotation and you stay in that order no matter how many feeding days are skipped.

EP-A 1st feeding
EP-A 2nd feeding
EP-A 3rd feeding
Calmg 4th feeding
EP-A 5th feeding
EP-A 6th feeding
EP-A 7th feeding
Revitalize D3 8th feeding
Cycle starts again from the beginning.

Arcadia revitalize is your multivitamin. It has very low levels of D3 and A so you have to ensure that UVB is spot on. Now you could swap the other direction.... Use the repashy supercal NoD as your everyday and then pull in the arcadia Revitalize D3. Like I said this one has very low levels of fat soluble vitamins. Then use it 2 times a month. But you still want to make sure that your UVB bulb, fixture and distances are checked.


Hopefully the person did not give you calcium with D3 for daily use. over supplementation of fat soluble vitamins can cause multiple issues. Lethargy, lack of appetite and problems with bones because of the excess D3. If this is part of his issue going on then this is something that can take a month to start seeing a change. Because these get stored in the tissues and do not flush like water soluble vitamins.


I would try the longer morning misting when he is awake. If he has something stuck it the eye this will help him to clean the turrets to get it out.

Thank you so much! I am on the insectivore schedule from Arcadia, I should have just said that, with the every other day thing it lined up to every other weekend like was trying to explain hehe. The solar meter will be ordered on my payday next week, I will definitely do the extended misting sessions to have him work on them eyes. I try to avoid him getting sprayed directly because he starts walking with his eyes closed at a decent pace and it makes me nervous he's gonna fall.

The enclosure he came in was not up to what is considered par from what I've seen so idk if he's still getting used to his enclosure too? I will attach what I was given him in as well, then I incrementally improved pretty quickly what he was in to "upgrade" the setup. I'm just spit balling things here?

Thanks again for the help and I will keep updating the thread on progress and things I notice.

The two enclosures attached are August 27 and then Nov 5 (the purpleish white plant light is removed per this thread, just not the most recent photo) so I'm not sure if the change in environment is a thing too?

 

[Beman]

Thank you so much! I am on the insectivore schedule from Arcadia, I should have just said that, with the every other day thing it lined up to every other weekend like was trying to explain hehe. The solar meter will be ordered on my payday next week, I will definitely do the extended misting sessions to have him work on them eyes. I try to avoid him getting sprayed directly because he starts walking with his eyes closed at a decent pace and it makes me nervous he's gonna fall.

The enclosure he came in was not up to what is considered par from what I've seen so idk if he's still getting used to his enclosure too? I will attach what I was given him in as well, then I incrementally improved pretty quickly what he was in to "upgrade" the setup. I'm just spit balling things here?

Thanks again for the help and I will keep updating the thread on progress and things I notice.

The two enclosures attached are August 27 and then Nov 5 (the purpleish white plant light is removed per this thread, just not the most recent photo) so I'm not sure if the change in environment is a thing too?

I don't think his issues are from the new set up. If anything that would help him. Now with the old set up I do see a potential cause. If he does have something in fact stuck in his eye and that is why he is closing it. See that black fake vine in there? That one is not recommended by most cham people because the coating comes off in little pieces. When a cham rubs its face and eyes on it this coating can get into the eyes.

No worries about him closing his eyes when misted. This is what they will do normally. This is what it will look like when he does attempt to do it.

 

[naterowley]

I don't think his issues are from the new set up. If anything that would help him. Now with the old set up I do see a potential cause. If he does have something in fact stuck in his eye and that is why he is closing it. See that black fake vine in there? That one is not recommended by most cham people because the coating comes off in little pieces. When a cham rubs its face and eyes on it this coating can get into the eyes.

No worries about him closing his eyes when misted. This is what they will do normally. This is what it will look like when he does attempt to do it.

Thank you, I removed the vines as soon as I learned they could cause issues because he definitely rubbed on those, AND there was pieces starting to crumble off, the only remnants from the prev enclosure are the bamboo because she screwed, hot glued and fishing wired them in there and I was not sure how to do that without destroying what he was in, the plan is to get a proper hybrid enclosure eventually. This morning before heading in to work, I checked on him and he was walking around looking, still closing the eye after looking, but overall less closing and more opening of both eyes the right one still being closed more than open though. Does him getting wet cause the eye cleaning or just sound and looks of the water falling? I know spraying directly is not ideal and my mister isn't as fine of drops as what a mist king seems to have (which is also on the list)

The plan for feeding since I was already lowering his intake is to keep cutting, he started at 10 crickets every other day, and was down to 7 every other day. Moving to the 3 times a week and 3 feeders is the goal. Probably gonna do 2 feeds at 5 and then to 3 just to wane it off

 

[Beman]

Thank you, I removed the vines as soon as I learned they could cause issues because he definitely rubbed on those, AND there was pieces starting to crumble off, the only remnants from the prev enclosure are the bamboo because she screwed, hot glued and fishing wired them in there and I was not sure how to do that without destroying what he was in, the plan is to get a proper hybrid enclosure eventually. This morning before heading in to work, I checked on him and he was walking around looking, still closing the eye after looking, but overall less closing and more opening of both eyes the right one still being closed more than open though. Does him getting wet cause the eye cleaning or just sound and looks of the water falling? I know spraying directly is not ideal and my mister isn't as fine of drops as what a mist king seems to have (which is also on the list)

The plan for feeding since I was already lowering his intake is to keep cutting, he started at 10 crickets every other day, and was down to 7 every other day. Moving to the 3 times a week and 3 feeders is the goal. Probably gonna do 2 feeds at 5 and then to 3 just to wane it off

So in my experience they have to be under a mister to really trigger the cleaning. As if it were raining.

I would reduce that way just try to get him down to the 3 times a week 3 feeders within the next few weeks.

I wish I knew the exact supplements he had before. Because if both eyes are effected it could be linked with vitamin A issue.

 

[naterowley]

So in my experience they have to be under a mister to really trigger the cleaning. As if it were raining.

I would reduce that way just try to get him down to the 3 times a week 3 feeders within the next few weeks.

I wish I knew the exact supplements he had before. Because if both eyes are effected it could be linked with vitamin A issue.

I reached out to the previous owner and asked her the supplements

She was doing zoo med reptical w/o d3 as main supplement, zoo med reptical with d3 every other weekend and the opposite weekend do the repashy calcium plus LOD

 

[MissSkittles]

I reached out to the previous owner and asked her the supplements

She was doing zoo med reptical w/o d3 as main supplement, zoo med reptical with d3 every other weekend and the opposite weekend do the repashy calcium plus LOD

So your guy has gotten too much D3 and that may be the issue. The Repashy calcium Plus LoD contains enough D3 that no additional D3 is needed. I would suggest skipping at least a month of the Revitalise D3 to allow him to get some out of his system. D3 is a fat soluble vitamin and basically only time is going to eliminate it. @Beman might advise different and she knows supplements so much better than I do, so take her advice over mine.

 

[Beman]

I reached out to the previous owner and asked her the supplements

She was doing zoo med reptical w/o d3 as main supplement, zoo med reptical with d3 every other weekend and the opposite weekend do the repashy calcium plus LOD

Ok so D3 level would be higher than recommended but not necessarily meaning overdose state getting it every week. But the fact that the cham was getting repashy LOD 2 times a month rules out vitamin A being the issue with the eyes. So it was very good that you reached out.

I am going back to my original line of thinking that something is stuck in the eye. Or little man just being overweight may be closing the eyes as a stress response to not feeling well.

Would not hurt to get a fecal done and rule out parasites as well.

 

[naterowley]

Ok so D3 level would be higher than recommended but not necessarily meaning overdose state getting it every week. But the fact that the cham was getting repashy LOD 2 times a month rules out vitamin A being the issue with the eyes. So it was very good that you reached out.

I am going back to my original line of thinking that something is stuck in the eye. Or little man just being overweight may be closing the eyes as a stress response to not feeling well.

Would not hurt to get a fecal done and rule out parasites as well.

A fecal was done at the vet and was clear, should I get another? it was done in September 2023

Think it's good to keep doing the Arcadia supplements then? Thicccc boi will be slimming out soon hopefully

 

[CalamityCrow]

A fecal was done at the vet and was clear, should I get another? it was done in September 2023

Think it's good to keep doing the Arcadia supplements then? Thicccc boi will be slimming out soon hopefully

I'd ask them for that paperwork. I think you'd be okay not getting one, but bear in mind that some parasites lay eggs/hatch in cycles, so sometimes it takes a couple fecals before you get a positive result. If you have the financial bandwidth, I'd toss a fecal onto the vet visit just for sanity's sake.

Personally, the arcadia supplement rotation is kidna complicated and confusing. Calcium without D3 and then 2x a month Repashy LoD is WAY easier to track and remember for me. My lazy butt says you should switch to the simpler solution.

 

[elizaann2]

I don't think his issues are from the new set up. If anything that would help him. Now with the old set up I do see a potential cause. If he does have something in fact stuck in his eye and that is why he is closing it. See that black fake vine in there? That one is not recommended by most cham people because the coating comes off in little pieces. When a cham rubs its face and eyes on it this coating can get into the eyes.

No worries about him closing his eyes when misted. This is what they will do normally. This is what it will look like when he does attempt to do it.

I'll never get over how odd that looks

 

[elizaann2]

I'd ask them for that paperwork. I think you'd be okay not getting one, but bear in mind that some parasites lay eggs/hatch in cycles, so sometimes it takes a couple fecals before you get a positive result. If you have the financial bandwidth, I'd toss a fecal onto the vet visit just for sanity's sake.

Personally, the arcadia supplement rotation is kidna complicated and confusing. Calcium without D3 and then 2x a month Repashy LoD is WAY easier to track and remember for me. My lazy butt says you should switch to the simpler solution.

Agreed. If you can, get a second fecal done just in case.

 

[Beman]

A fecal was done at the vet and was clear, should I get another? it was done in September 2023

Think it's good to keep doing the Arcadia supplements then? Thicccc boi will be slimming out soon hopefully

I would get another done just to ensure that he is clear. Parasites shed in cycles so you can get false negatives as well. Granted I really am leaning away from this as being a cause just based on his size and issues could be directly linked to that and the prior incorrect vines. But I tend to over worry and analyze when it comes to my cham and some people take that approach too. lol

Arcadia supplements could totally be used. Its just managing to remember the actual rotation with the recommended 8 feed cycle. I tried them and wanted to shoot myself after a few months even with tracking it on a calendar. Another popular option with it is to use the Earth pro A at every feed (this one is like plain calcium without D3 except it has water soluble vitamins in it) Then get repashy calcium Plus LOD version for your multivitamin. This one would be used two times a month on like the 1st and the 15th. This can make it a bit easier to remember.

 

[Andrew1283]

When things are going right it all seems so easy. When things go sideways….

 

[naterowley]

@Beman I like the idea of EPA and Repashy LOD twice a month, the EPA with bee pollen is what drawn me to it after learning they eat bees in the wild pretty regularly.

Good to know about the parasites too! Thank You

Today he has had more eye opening time than yesterday, still closing but seems to be more "willing" to open them faster if that makes sense, typically most times after opening the eyes he does a clean after a moment on them, the longer sprays have been working in terms of generating more eye cleaning from what ive witnessed before. The best reaction I noticed is a 2min spray, wait a min or two then another 2min spray.

Took him outside for some rays and he was much more active and kept both eyes open the whole time for the 15ish mins we were out there. He kept his left eye open the whole time and the right eye he would close to clean but never to just be closed. I know that I am no where near in the clear, but seeing progress even if small or not decreases has been nice since initially posting.

Again, thanks for everyone taking the time to give me advice and following along, I really want to right by all of my reptiles and y'all are helping me with that.

I will update next when I feel like there is something to report

 

[Beman]

@Beman I like the idea of EPA and Repashy LOD twice a month, the EPA with bee pollen is what drawn me to it after learning they eat bees in the wild pretty regularly.

Good to know about the parasites too! Thank You

Today he has had more eye opening time than yesterday, still closing but seems to be more "willing" to open them faster if that makes sense, typically most times after opening the eyes he does a clean after a moment on them, the longer sprays have been working in terms of generating more eye cleaning from what ive witnessed before. The best reaction I noticed is a 2min spray, wait a min or two then another 2min spray.

Took him outside for some rays and he was much more active and kept both eyes open the whole time for the 15ish mins we were out there. He kept his left eye open the whole time and the right eye he would close to clean but never to just be closed. I know that I am no where near in the clear, but seeing progress even if small or not decreases has been nice since initially posting.

Again, thanks for everyone taking the time to give me advice and following along, I really want to right by all of my reptiles and y'all are helping me with that.

I will update next when I feel like there is something to report

Continue with the longer misting sessions until the issue resolves. I like the EPA and Repashy LOD combo. You get the best of both brands without the calendar headache.

Let us know if any questions come up.

 

[naterowley]

Just to give an update, the right eye is still the primary issue with the left still being closed sometimes. Longer misting sessions and he's rubbing his eyes. Yesterday he was incredibly active all day, today he's slower than yesterday but still opening the eyes. He has yet to shed in my care and I have no idea if that will help with the eye issues. Overall doing great to not so great on and off, nothing as bad as first day but still things that are driving me crazy hoping for progress. The mist king is ordered for him and I get paid Friday so the solar meter for piece of mind will be ordered.

He's down to 4 feeders and on the 3 day a week schedule, Monday, Thursday and Saturday. Could his obesity cause anything like this?

 

[naterowley]

Just to give an update, the right eye is still the primary issue with the left still being closed sometimes. Longer misting sessions and he's rubbing his eyes. Yesterday he was incredibly active all day, today he's slower than yesterday but still opening the eyes. He has yet to shed in my care and I have no idea if that will help with the eye issues. Overall doing great to not so great on and off, nothing as bad as first day but still things that are driving me crazy hoping for progress. The mist king is ordered for him and I get paid Friday so the solar meter for piece of mind will be ordered.

He's down to 4 feeders and on the 3 day a week schedule, Monday, Thursday and Saturday. Could his obesity cause anything like this?

I took him outside since we hit low 60s and sunny. Definitely appears to have a shed starting the first pic is the right eye he’s been rubbing and having issues with and the second pic is another spot on his left eye (on right in pic) that looks like shedding?

Is this the start of a shed? (He has yet to shed in my care, in my care mid September 2023)

 

[elizaann2]

I took him outside since we hit low 60s and sunny. Definitely appears to have a shed starting the first pic is the right eye he’s been rubbing and having issues with and the second pic is another spot on his left eye (on right in pic) that looks like shedding?

Is this the start of a shed? (He has yet to shed in my care, in my care mid September 2023)

I cant tell personally. He sure is beautiful though and in very good loving hands with you