Please Help- Sick Deremensis?

[AxelsMum]

Hi
I have had Axel now for about three months. He has always been a hefty eater and active drinker, except for recently. I have only gotten him to eat about 2 super worms (large) a day now and I have been misting him triple the amount as I usually do, for I had noticed his neglect at the dripper and found his urate to be orange-ish today.

I was wondering if anyone could look at these photos and let me know if any signs of sickness appear. He is my first chameleon so I could use an experts perspective.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Triceros Deremensis, male, around a year old I believe. I have had him for four months.
Handling - Axel is free ranged when I am home. He has a big cage with an open door and several manzanita trees around my house (house is small) so he is picked up a few times a day to be placed inside cage if I do leave. He tends to wait at the door of his cage to come out once I am home. He also climbs different trees and crawls to me daily to sit on my shoulder while I work on my computer. Axel is a mama’s boy for sure, loves to watch and follow me around.
Feeding - crickets, super worms (large), and roaches. Right now he has been solely eating super worms and has been veering away from crickets and roaches. He used to eat about 6 feeders a day, but now just 2. I feed him in the morning and if he is not interested ill leave crickets in his cage while I am out. I gut load with mixes found at the pet stores.
Supplements - herptivite multi once every 2 weekish, rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium with vitd3 once or twice a week
Watering - He has a drip on throughout the day, I mist 6-10 times a day for about 10 minutes or until he stops drinking.
Fecal Description - watery poop and watery orange urate
History - No information given when I bought him.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - screen cage, X-Large: 24" x 24" x 48" He does however like to be outside the cage when possible. He even sleeps on a tree on my bedside table
Lighting - zoo med duo lighting 120v- 100w max, lighting schedule 8/9am-8pm
Temperature - 74 in cage usually and basking low 80s ? mid 60s at night. measured with temp gauge
Humidity - usually about 70% I use a fogger a few times throughout the day and a humidifier pointed into the bottom of his cage
Plants - live plants in house and around cage, vines, 2 manzanita trees, and fake plans inside cage
Placement - cage is located in corner of house, near a cool mist humidifier, low traffic area
cage is placed on floor
Location - san diego, CA

Current Problem - He is not interested in eating and has Orange/watery urate.

 

[jannb]

I'm really sorry to here that Axel is not well. I would highly recommend a fecal if you have not had one recently. He could have parasites and that's always a good thing to check for first. There's a really good chameleon vet in your area and a check up would be a good idea too.
Dr. Todd Cecil at the Emergency and Specialty Hospital in La Mesa on Jackson and in Chula Vista (not sure location)
http://www.pescsandiego.com/staff

 

[kinyonga]

Please answer the questions in the how to ask for help thread at the top of the health forum so we can help you better. Be specific about the names/brands of the supplements and include the feeding/gutloading you do for the insects.

 

[jannb]

This is the form Kinyonga is referring to.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

 

[AxelsMum]

Thanks! Ill have to give them a call in the morning!

 

[jannb]

Thanks! Ill have to give them a call in the morning!

You are welcome. It would be a very good idea to fill out the ask for help form giving as much detail as possible to make sure you are keeping him the exact correct way. It could be something in his husbandry making him act off. I would still get the fecal too because parasites are common in chameleons because of the feeders they eat. If parasite go untreated they can make them sick and eventually kill them.

 

[AxelsMum]

Ok thanks I am new to the forum so I can use all the advice I can get! Quick question, since he's being such a finiky eater lately it's hard to get his supplements in. What are your thoughts about mixing a tiny bit into his water?

 

[Carlton]

Ok thanks I am new to the forum so I can use all the advice I can get! Quick question, since he's being such a finiky eater lately it's hard to get his supplements in. What are your thoughts about mixing a tiny bit into his water?

I wouldn't add anything to his water partly because most chams don't drink all that much in volume. The last thing you want is to "teach" him that water tastes funny and risk that he won't drink it. I'm not surprised he doesn't use the dripper. My deremensis never did. They did drink after the cage plants were dripping heavily. Montane species like deremensis can be sensitive to fat-soluable vitamins, though they do still need some plain calcium daily. I think you could reduce the frequency of vitamin dusting slightly. I didn't see a plain calcium dust (no added vit D3) in your list. Are you using this? Doesn't take a lot each day.

Deremensis are finicky secretive eaters I suspect as they are not as active as other species...sort of the ultimate lurk and wait predator. If he's not expending much energy in activity during the day he won't be eating all that much. And, if he's not eating that much he's not pooping as often. Urates sitting in the GI tract longer tend to get denser and can get a slightly orange tinge on one end (the end that comes out first is the oldest part). But you also said his poop is watery. A dehydrated cham's poop would be hard and dense. This could be a symptom of parasites so a fecal exam should be done. One thing you could do to reassure yourself that he's not losing body condition is to weigh him regularly. Once wc chams recover their reserves after the stress of capture, shipping, less-than perfect care and housing with other animals etc, I think many sort of plateau in terms of eating. He could be bored with the feeder types. You might experiment with some softer bodied feeders such as silkworms or hornworms or houseflies. They may get him more interested. Also don't feed him every day. He's an adult and doesn't really need to eat daily.

 

[AxelsMum]

ok I will have the fecal done this week. He has pooped today but I did get a photo of his urate this morning that I just added to my original post. Does anyone recognize the illness?

 

[brownie64]

He looks pretty healthy to me. I have Jacksons, and they can be very finicky eaters, and sometimes wait as long as four days to eat. That is just the nature of Montane species they don't have that I got to eat them all or I'm going to starve mentality like Veiled's do. You just might be an overly cautious mother which there is nothing wrong with that. However that being said if he has watery stools then I would definitely get a fecal like the others have said for peace of mind if nothing else.

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks for answering the questions. You're chameleon looks good.

Is one of the lights a UVB light?

Regarding supplements...its recommended that you dust with a phosphorous-free calcium powder at most feedings and twice a month with a phosphorous-free calcium/D3 powder in addition to doing the vitamin powder twice a month.

I would recommend that you feed / gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms with a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.

You might be giving him too much D3. We only do it twice a month to ensure that it gets some D3 without overdosing it and leaving the chameleon to produce the rest of the D3 from its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system and lead to health issues while D3 from exposure to UVB won't likely build up as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB when it wants to.

I would still have a fecal done to see if he has parasites.

If he's pooping then he is eating.

 

[AxelsMum]

Ok thanks I will cut down on the d3 supplementing and have the fecal done this week. I have started to gut load with assorted greens with the other mixes I have from pet stores. He did end up finally eating quite a few crickets yesterday so that was good. I think as he becomes older he is just starting to eat less, though he does exercise a lot around the house. I uploaded a photo of his urate, does it look weird to you? I am still waiting for him to poop so that I can examine that today hopefully.

 

[LilBlue]

I agree with everything posted so far, fecal is a good idea. With the foods you are feeding it does seem abnormal for urates to be that runny(I only see runny stuff when feeding silk or horn worms).

Temps are too high, especially the basking temp. These guys like it cool that's for sure. I am by no means a pro with this species, but the best info I have found was by searching these forums, and I have kept this species for one year now. 70-71F is a good daytime high. A few degrees warmer for a basking spot, which mine(along with reports from others) they rarely use. I have turned off the basking lamps on my two males, as they won't move around in the higher areas of the cage with it on, the females seem to enjoy a bit of warmth though. I also read on here that they are prone to fatty liver disease, caused by over feeding. These guys don't move around much, sometimes sitting in the same spot for 4 or more days. Depending on what food I offer, I only feed my deremensis 2-3 times a week, and have done this since bringing them home as fresh wild caught. They have nice weight on them, and are not bulgy. I do notice in your pics that your guy is a bit bulgy in the hip area, and his tail too...I would cut back a wee bit on the food, especially the foods high in chiton(sp). I think he's a little "backed up" and needs some soft food to move things along. While you are waiting on the fecal results, try some silks, horns, wax or butter worms. I bet he will pass a mass of bug skeletons. You are also right that has they mature, they want to eat less, it's great that you are so observant of his activity changes. Reptiles are so good at hiding illness until it's too late.

Oh - and it's great that you mist so much, just make sure the terrarium is drying out between mistings, otherwise bacteria will build up, causing breathing problems and such. Can you cover a side or two with plastic? 6-10 mistings sounds like a lot of work lol, but if you enjoy doing it, keep on at 'er

 

[AxelsMum]

Thanks for the advice! I did lower his daytime temp after reading your reply. I also cut down on feeding everyday, I decided to try every other day which seems to be working. He'll eat less one day, and then make up for it the following feeding day.
He seems to move around a lot so thats why I try to mist so much, I do however make sure his cage is drying out before another mist. I work for home basically and he's the only animal in the house so I do have a lot of time to tend to his needs, I try to give him space as much as possible and spoil him when he initiates it.

His poops seems to solidify this week but his urate is still pretty watery. He does go every day and seems to get as much water as he finds necessary I am wondering if the watery urate is caused by his love of water? I do have some pictures of it that I was going to upload. As of right now he's only eating supers and a few crickets here and there. I try to spice up his diet with different feeders but supers seem to excite him the most, and crickets are only eaten if i offer a ton at a time to get him excited by the movement.

 

[AxelsMum]

his current urate