Possible MBD?

[jcarlsen]

TL/DR - Worried my cham has MBD, got a vet appointment for this Sat, wondering if there's anything I can do in the meanwhile, especially to reduce stress before transporting him.


Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Male Ambilobe Panther, 16 months old, had him about 10 months now, since June 2015.
• Handling - Infrequently, once or twice a week at most, but not consistently.
• Feeding - Feeding super worms mostly, since he won’t eat crickets or roaches. Other worms when I can (horn, silk, phoenix). I try to offer food every other day. Generally 8-12 insects are offered, but he’s not eating much lately. Gut loading feeders with fresh greens, apples, carrots, orange, repashy’s superfood gut load, sometimes bug burger.
• Supplements - Calcium without D3 every feeding, Calcium w/ D3 and Multivitamin 2x a month. (been offering those more frequently to compensate for lacking food intake)
• Watering - Mistking system with rain nozzle outside and one misthead inside. 5 mins at 7am, 2 mins at 10 am, 1 min at 1pm, 4pm and 7pm. I also use a dripper on one of his live plants and a branch right in the middle of the cage. I do see him drinking.

• Fecal Description - Not been tested for parasites. Most recent poop was 4/28, and it was huge because it had been nearly 3 weeks since he'd gone. The urate was dark and orange with spots of white, not sure if because of dehydration or because he'd held it in so long.
• History - Just a picky eater. I got him addicted to super worms and have tried offering other non-worm feeders for as long as 10 days, but he didn't care for any of it, so I stopped.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Dragonstrand large keeper screen cage, with all lower portions covered with window plastic for humidity and splash purposes.
• Lighting - Using Arcadia 12% UVB and 6500K in dual bulb hood. Lights on at 7am, off at 8pm.
• Temperature - Cage floor is around 72F, basking spot is 90F. Measured with probe on basking spot and hand held device for other areas. During the day the ambient temp in my apartment never drops below 70.? At night, I let the temp go as low as 67F.
• Humidity - Humidity goes up as much as 70-75% after misting, but can drop as low as 20-30%, according to the analogue gauge. I'm not sure gauge is accurate, as it does get exposed to direct light and may dry up faster than the rest of the cage. Misting sessions and dripper, with big live Pothos and Croton plants help humidity. Half of cage is covered in window plastic to help.
• Plants - 1 big pothos that catches most of the mist, hanging in rear left corner under rain nozzle. 1 croton plant sitting at bottom.
• Placement - Cage is in the living room tucked in a corner next to a book case. Its back is to a wall that has a vent about 2 feet to the left way above and way below the cage. Far as I can tell, The drafts miss the cage entirely. These are heating vents only. Cage is about 6 feet from bottom of the floor, just over my head and I'm 5'10".
• Location - Boston, MA.

Current Problem - So the main problem I'm having is that I'm noticing what appear to be some MBD symptoms. He's a bit on the lethargic side, for the past week to week and a half, electing to stay on the bottom branches most of the time (though he climbed up to bask the other day). When I see him walking on the branches, his body is very close to the branch, and I notice his movement is jittery, not just leaf like, but almost parkinsons-like. He also is just not eating as much, which I originally thought was finally a case of boredom with his favorite super worms. He'll still eat one or two from my hand if he's in the right spot, and I've made sure to dust those with calcium and that they were gut loaded beforehand.

So, I do have a vet appointment this Saturday morning, and I've got a box with a nice vine and towel at the bottom all ready to go to transport him. I've ordered some phoenix worms which he's enjoyed previously, and they claim to have very high amounts of calcium, so I figure I can give those a try. I've offered him a new feeder cup to just change things up a bit, but he doesn't seem interested in eating from it just yet.

A few days, I've gently picked him up and moved him to a higher branch to bask and get more UVB light, and be in close proximity to his feeders, though I wonder if I should just stop doing that and leave him be. Any advice you guys can offer me while I wait until Saturday? I want to reduce his stress before the trip as much as possible. I can leave the cage covered during the day if you guys think that'd be helpful.

I've attached some images that hopefully give you guys a good look at his legs.

I greatly appreciate any advice you folks have to give.

 

[Chachi]

I have a veiled cham that I rescued from Petco that had mbd. She did the things you describe except the food deal. She has had a lot of problems-even surgery but she always eats. Why Im writing is to say, one of my other chams, a female panther began to have those weird jittery movements, lethargic, wasnt interested in anything and she had a stomach problem. She needed medicine for too much of the bad kind of bacteria in her gut. So, dont be too panicked. When they are sick, they act like that, I think, no matter what they are sick with. My girls poop was a little watery and had some brown jello like stuff in it-when she pooped but she didnt poop alot cause she wouldnt eat a lot. Let us know.

 

[jcarlsen]

I have a veiled cham that I rescued from Petco that had mbd. She did the things you describe except the food deal. She has had a lot of problems-even surgery but she always eats. Why Im writing is to say, one of my other chams, a female panther began to have those weird jittery movements, lethargic, wasnt interested in anything and she had a stomach problem. She needed medicine for too much of the bad kind of bacteria in her gut. So, dont be too panicked. When they are sick, they act like that, I think, no matter what they are sick with. My girls poop was a little watery and had some brown jello like stuff in it-when she pooped but she didnt poop alot cause she wouldnt eat a lot. Let us know.

Good to know! I'm glad I've got a vet appointment so we'll know for sure, though I'm not sure if Jasper will make a poop by then for us to bring as a sample.

 

[Chachi]

Good to know! I'm glad I've got a vet appointment so we'll know for sure, though I'm not sure if Jasper will make a poop by then for us to bring as a sample.

lots of water and he should make some. They really need to get it under the scope. That and a little blood should tell him whats up.

 

[Carlton]

IMHO, I don't think MBD is the problem. I would be careful not to "predispose" the vet to assume he has MBD either. Taking a fresh fecal will be a good idea as it could help rule out other problems. If he doesn't produce one the vet can still get a sample from the vent. Some blood work would also be a good idea. Something is going on, but your lighting, supplementation and gutloading is OK, so doesn't seem to indicate MBD. Urates that are held in for a long time do get darker colored, but that seems VERY dark for that explanation. His casque looks nice and plump so he's not overly dehydrated. I noticed in one of the pics one of his ankles looks swollen ...are all his ankles bulgy like that? Could indicate articular gout.

 

[jcarlsen]

IMHO, I don't think MBD is the problem. I would be careful not to "predispose" the vet to assume he has MBD either. Taking a fresh fecal will be a good idea as it could help rule out other problems. If he doesn't produce one the vet can still get a sample from the vent. Some blood work would also be a good idea. Something is going on, but your lighting, supplementation and gutloading is OK, so doesn't seem to indicate MBD. Urates that are held in for a long time do get darker colored, but that seems VERY dark for that explanation. His casque looks nice and plump so he's not overly dehydrated. I noticed in one of the pics one of his ankles looks swollen ...are all his ankles bulgy like that? Could indicate articular gout.

Good thinking. I'm just going to go in and go over the symptoms I notice and let the vet expertise diagnose. Not 100% sure about the ankles. I'm at work ATM and will take a peek when I'm home. I wasn't sure if there were any arm deformities starting or he was just getting beefier.

 

[jcarlsen]

IMHO, I don't think MBD is the problem. I would be careful not to "predispose" the vet to assume he has MBD either. Taking a fresh fecal will be a good idea as it could help rule out other problems. If he doesn't produce one the vet can still get a sample from the vent. Some blood work would also be a good idea. Something is going on, but your lighting, supplementation and gutloading is OK, so doesn't seem to indicate MBD. Urates that are held in for a long time do get darker colored, but that seems VERY dark for that explanation. His casque looks nice and plump so he's not overly dehydrated. I noticed in one of the pics one of his ankles looks swollen ...are all his ankles bulgy like that? Could indicate articular gout.

So I snapped a few shots as best I could of his legs this morning. Seems like his elbows are a bit swollen too? I'd say all the legs look even, left and right-wise.

 

[Chachi]

Good to know! I'm glad I've got a vet appointment so we'll know for sure, though I'm not sure if Jasper will make a poop by then for us to bring as a sample.

j

So I snapped a few shots as best I could of his legs this morning. Seems like his elbows are a bit swollen too? I'd say all the legs look even, left and right-wise.

Damn, he is pretty. Everything looks ok to me but he is not mune. Only you know if he appears a bit swollen. Wouldn't hurt to take him to your vet. Where are you?

 

[jcarlsen]

j

Damn, he is pretty. Everything looks ok to me but he is not mune. Only you know if he appears a bit swollen. Wouldn't hurt to take him to your vet. Where are you?

I'm in MA, and I've got a vet appt for Saturday at The Odd Pet Vet

 

[Chachi]

I'm in MA, and I've got a vet appt for Saturday at The Odd Pet Vet

Ok, I was asking cause I'm in Denver and I found a vet that is so so good and knowledgeable and not one of those expensive big business a-holes. He operated on my 'special' veiled cham and charged me $75!

 

[jcarlsen]

Just a quick update... Had our vet appointment yesterday, and I had a very positive experience. The doc doesn't think it's MBD necessarily, as she felt the limbs and jaw and they felt pretty solid. We de-wormed him, gave him a calcium shot and she advised me to dust with more D3 since he's not been eating very much lately. We also put him on a round of antibiotics which I'll be giving for the next 21 days. I'm also to bring in a fecal sample as soon as he produces one, so we're on poop watch for the next few days.

I just want to thank everyone on here for their support, and I hope this helps Jasper bounce back a bit. Also, as I mentioned previously, the place I went to is called the Odd Pet Vet, and it's in Weymouth, MA. If any of my fellow chammers on here are around that area in MA, I highly recommend them. Though I don't know if it's as cheap as the vet Chachi mentioned above, my total for the visit, and the meds administered there plus the ones I'm taking home is $88, which I've learned isn't too bad. My mom was shocked because she said it costs more than that just to have her dog looked at, so...

Anywho, I'll update this thread again if there are any changes, good or bad, but obviously if things get worse, I'm getting in contact with the vet ASAP.

 

[Chachi]

Im glad you got him squared away and everything is fixable. I know howit feels to experience that sigh of relief. And, that is probably close to what my vet would cost for all of that medicine and time, etc.

 

[jcarlsen]

Just thought I'd drop a quick update. Since last Sat I'd been giving Jasper his antibiotics every morning and force feeding a gut loaded roach dusted with repashys repcal plus. He pooped sometime on Monday and I managed to rush it over to the vet. As it turns out he has coccidia, so we're arranging to get new meds as soon as possible for him.


I'm assuming at least some on here have dealt with parasites and such, so any tips would be appreciated!

 

[JGspecial]

hey man! im from mass too, lowell area. my boy in the pic had coccidia real bad since the day i got him (didnt know it) and didnt take too well to the meds and ended up dying. got him from the reptile show in manchester nh. stay on top of it and hell make it through. good luck

 

[jcarlsen]

hey man! im from mass too, lowell area. my boy in the pic had coccidia real bad since the day i got him (didnt know it) and didnt take too well to the meds and ended up dying. got him from the reptile show in manchester nh. stay on top of it and hell make it through. good luck

Thanks, Man! Glad to know there's another chammer here in MA! I've been reading up on it, and apparently ponazuril is the medication that will have no bad side effects to it? Gonna call the vet in an hour and see about which meds and when to get them. Sorry to hear about your guy passing away .

 

[JGspecial]

its okay, i loved him but he had a lot of problems. i have 4 other chameleons to care for that i love and am on top of all their checkups.

 

[jannb]

Be sure to get Ponazuril and not Albon for the coccidia. Do you have other reptiles? Coccidia is contagious.
It's very important to clean every week with peroxide.....the 60 volume that you buy at a beauty supply store such as Sally's. Also after you get him clean get regular fecals afterwards because it's easy for them to re-infest. I'll see if I can find you a link about the clean up. It's the hardest part.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chameleons-and-coccidia-ponazuril-offers-new-hope.16409/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/coccidia-cleaning-need-advice-tips-please.42444/

 

[jcarlsen]

Be sure to get Ponazuril and not Albon for the coccidia. Do you have other reptiles? Coccidia is contagious.
It's very important to clean every week with peroxide.....the 60 volume that you buy at a beauty supply store such as Sally's. Also after you get him clean get regular fecals afterwards because it's easy for them to re-infest. I'll see if I can find you a link about the clean up. It's the hardest part.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chameleons-and-coccidia-ponazuril-offers-new-hope.16409/

We have a blue tongue skink and white's tree frogs, though we never let them come into contact with each other and we sanitize our hands between handling. The skink and frogs are in a different room from Jasper. Do you still think they're at risk? The only other contact I can think of is I use the same tweezers as the frogs to clean poops only, but after doing that we literally burn them with fire to sanitize them.

I'm not looking forward to the cleaning, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do . Is peroxide my only option? There are many reptile safe cleaners out there, like I just ordered a chlorexidine solution based on some of the cleaning threads I've seen on here.

 

[KapitalJ]

http://www.amazon.com/F10-SC-F10SC-Veterinary-Disinfectant/dp/B00DR25TSG

This is what I always used to clean all my ball python bins out. I ran out though a week ago..

 

[jcarlsen]

So thought I'd drop yet another update. Jasper's last fecal test was clean of parasites, though I will be bringing in another to be sure. I wound up taking him back to the vet because I felt his recovery kind of reached a plateau. I've been able to get him to shoot a few supers from my hand IF he happens to be in a good position to get them, but overall, would really only take from my hand and not hunt or shoot from the feeder cup. I've noticed that while he moves around a bit more, he's still not reaching well with his front arms or lifting himself off. Short of it, the vet's got me doing antibiotics for a full 30 days.

In the meanwhile, I'd previously done an entire strip down and clean of his whole cage, replaced all the branches with new ones and washed the fake and real plants well.

So my question is about the eating and feeding. A few times I've force fed him a few worms, a roach or two and recently a cricket. He's very inconsistent when he wants to actually shoot food from my hand, and it has been a while since he's pooped, like going on 3 or so weeks it seems. What have you guys done when going through a round of antibiotics that might sap the already lackluster appetite?

Thanks!