Possible MBD

[JessicaRoberts]

[/IMG]
here is his cage

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Veiled chameleon, about 9 months old

Handling - Rarely, last time was Saturday, when these symptoms started occuring

Feeding - Feeding one or two crickets twice a day, dusted with calcium powder on the day we bring them home. Crickets eat potatoes (which I am now reading is inadequate)


Watering - We have a fogger that we use every other day for about two hours. We also mist two or three times a week until the chameleon no longer seems interested (about one minute). Until Saturday, he opens his mouth for the misting and enjoys it.

Fecal Description - White and brown fecal droppings.

Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? No

History - Has had an eye infection before, up until this weekend he was fine

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Glass on bottom, screen on top, about three feet high

Lighting - Can't say off hand, (I'm at work). One daytime lamp and one red lamp for nighttime (don't know about UVA UVB since I can't read them right now)

Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? no

Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Cage is in front of a window on a table. Top of cage is about 4 feet from floor.

Location - Where are you geographically located? Eastern North Carolina

Current Problem - Saturday my husband took the chameleon out of his cage to clean the cage out. We have done this before without a problem. I have sat and held the chameleon while he cleaned the cage. This time, I held the chameleon while he cleaned out the cage and a few things happened that may have triggered a problem:

My pomeranian got very close to him (about three inches from him). I don't know if this caused a bacterial issue for the chameleon or if he was incredibly scared, which may have caused a problem.

A laid the chameleon on a blanket for about one minute. After realizing the blanket may have dog hair on it, and this may be a health issue, I picked him back up and contined to hold him.

Ever since we put him back in his cage, he is showing symptoms of MBD. He stays at the bottom of his cage and falls down when we move him up to the top. He is very shaky when he walks and seems to have zero balance skills anymore. He has not eaten since Saturday, and just lays on his stomach at the bottom of the cage. I don't know if it's a reaction to the cage going from dirty to clean, being too close to the pomeranian, or being on a blanket, or a combination of the shock of all three. I don't notice any fractures on his limbs, but that's not to say he doesn't have any.

Today I'm feeding the crickets healthier fruits and vegetables as I've read potatoes aren't really enough. I'm double checking to make sure we are using UVB lights when I get home, and if we aren't I am switching. Besides that, I am clueless as what to do to help this little guy. I'm not sure if his limbs are fractured or not, but he's not staying on the to pof his cage, and I have watched him fall from the top to the bottom.

HELP!



Edits: I am sure we are using UVB, I've gotten confirmation on that now (which I am relieved about). No, I'm not sure if he's male, we just refer to him as "he" since we don't know. I will upload pictures of him when I get home today from work. I have made a vet appointment but it is 8 days out, and my biggest concern is keeping him alive until then.

New edit: Vet appt is moved up to Friday, I just don't know if he can make it. I'm so upset, I just keep thinking he's in pain and it's making me incredibly sad.

 

[Julirs]

Oh where to begin. First of all-if you have some pictures of the chameleon and the cage that would help alot. Are you sure it is male? You MUST have UVB-if you do not-then you are right you probably have a chameleon with MBD. You should gutload crickets with a variety of things and dust right before you feed-if you dust the day you get crix the dust falls off and is not getting to your cham. Do you know your temps? This is another thing crucial to the well being of your chameleon. Your watering technique sounds less than adequate. It sounds like a vet visit is in order.

 

[pssh]

If you aren't using a UVB light and calcium without d3 regularly and you have had him for a long time, he probably does have MBD.

If this is the case, the best thing to do is get him to a chameleon experienced vet. After that is done you NEED a reptisun 5.0 (is the best, but a reptiglo 5.0 will work too) linear tube UVB light and you NEED to start dusting his food item with calcium without d3 most feedings and calcium with d3 a few times a month. E will also need a multivitamin once a month that contains no vit A. The d3 is what the chameleon normally makes when exposed to UVB radiation but since the UVB lights are not like the sun we give a tiny bit extra to make sure they get enough. The D3 is what helps draw calcium into the bones, but they can overdose so you can't give it too much.

If you are able to get him out side for some natural sun light, that would also help him. Natural sunlight can do wonders (in addition to a vet visit of course.)

As for gutloading you can use green like kale, collard greens, mustard greens, dandelion greens, endive, and escarole. You can use fruits and other veggies like carrots, squash, sweet potatoes, sweet peppers, apples, papaya, oranges, and berries as well.

You need to know your temps and you need to start misting 2-3 times a DAY in addition to using a dripper. The dripper doesn't have to be elaborate, a cup with a pin sized hole in it is enough.

If anyone is home right now, have them put him on a plant and in the shower. Have them aim the water at the wall so the spray bounces off the wall and on to him. Make sure the water is room temp (warm to us is hot to them) This will help hydrate him until you can get him to the vet. You can also use a syringe filled with a 50:50 water: plain pedialyte solution and give him a little. These are not solutions to your problems, just things you can do until he gets to a vet.

 

[Metric]

"Feeding - Feeding one or two crickets twice a day, dusted with calcium powder on the day we bring them home."

what do you mean when you say you dust them on the day you bring them home?

Also you didn't mention anything about temperatures, my concern is that the glass enclosure is in front of a window and could easily heat up more then the chameleon would like, and it MIGHT explain why he is hanging around the bottom (coldest area in the enclosure)

The shaking and falling are definitely MBD related symptoms.

The most important factor at the moment is a UV source, and without it, MBD could definitely develop especially if your gutload isn't providing any nutrients, regardless your cham needs that UV light to process the calcium that your dusting his crickets with.

You also said:

"We also mist two or three times a week until the chameleon no longer seems interested"

you should be misting 2-3 times a DAY not a week, Im hoping that was a typo. You should also have some sort of drip system to allow a constant source of water.


At this point you should post a picture of the cham so we can verify if he/she is showing signs of MBD.

 

[JessicaRoberts]

Thanks for the quick responses! After reading much on MBD and your responses, I've learned that my husband has been doing a lot of things wrong. Our watering has been extremely inadequate, and our gut loading has been as well. We have been using all potatoes, and dusting the crickets when we bring them home, not when we are about to feed him.

I'm concerned he won't live to make his vet appointment. I just called my husband from work and he went to the pet store where and spoke with someone who sold him some drops to give him orally as a calcium supplement. He just gave him three drops of this oral supplement. He also bought food for the crickets, the person at the store said the food was high in nutrients and would be better than just potatoes.

I read the advice about 50:50 water and pedialyte, but I have read in another post on here that pedialyte actually dehydrates chameleons? And that apple juice is better? I think I read that on a post about a chameleon named Molly. Should I do the pedialyte?

I'd like to know and do as much as possible to keep the little guy/girl alive until his vet appointment. I will do the shower trick and either pedialyte or apple juice, depending on if I get another response about which one is better than the other. Unfrotunately I can't get him to a vet today . Just doing everything I can to help him make it through until his appt.

 

[Julirs]

Your best and probably only bet is for your husband to get him to the Vet today-they will need to inject a calcium booster as well as probably give him some sub-q fluids.

 

[pssh]

Well, it would help if you post some pictures so we can help more.

In my post there were several things that I said could help hydrate him until you get him to a vet (asap.) Falling is not a good sign.

Most dry gutloads that you buy at stores are not very good for chameleons. Many memmbers on here sell gutload that is much better. Just use fresh veggies for now.

 

[kpritch17]

Definitely give him a shower like pssh said. What are the temps in his cage?? Also, I would get rid of the fogger and also the night time light (unless your night temps fall below the 50s). Also, you never mentioned what type of UVB light you are using?

 

[pssh]

Have your husband post pictures. It may not be as bad as it sounds, or it could be. People would be able to tell you though once pictures are posted.

Many have used pedialyte just fine so I don't see a problem with it, but if you are concerned go with what ever you want. I've never heard of the results with apple juice though, so I don't know how well that works.

 

[JessicaRoberts]

Definitely give him a shower like pssh said. What are the temps in his cage?? Also, I would get rid of the fogger and also the night time light (unless your night temps fall below the 50s). Also, you never mentioned what type of UVB light you are using?

I'll do the shower today, I'm just so worried about handling him if his bones are fractured/broken, I'm scared I'm causing him pain. But if you guys think I should go ahead, I will.

I didn't realize the fogger and the red/night lamp weren't good ideas! It does not get below 50 in there. We have two thermometers that say different numbers. They are both in the 80's though.

I will get more information on our UVB lighting tonight. Will I know the type of UVB lighting from reading the bulb or the packaging? Because we no longer have the boxes from the bulbs.


This is the post that I read previously about the Pedialyte:

"Okay Molly and I are back from the vet and I have a few facts that EVERYONE should know about! Before I talk about Molly here is what I learned:
1) For subQ fluids, remember to tell your veterinarian to mix lactated ringers with 1 part solution, 1 part distilled water. Regular lactated ringers solution has a higher saline content then what reptiles need, so giving it straight solution is actually DEHYDRATING the reptile, no hydrating it.
2) For hydrating at home, DO NOT USE PEDIALYTE, GATORADE, OR POWERADE. Just like the lactated ringers solution, you are actually DEHYDRATING the reptile instead of hydrating it. Give it APPLE JUICE, Dr. Mertz says to not worry about the sugar as long as it isn't given in large amounts."

I'm nervous about it from reading this, I'm not saying anyone is wrong or anything because I obviously don't know a thing! But I'm worried from reading that if Pedialyte is the right thing to do.

I'll get more information for you guys when I get home, and I'm going to do the shower and the fruits and veggies for the crickets today.

Pictures coming in one hour on my lunch break!

 

[Julirs]

People if he is on his belly on the cage bottom he needs to go to the vet. Is there a reason that cannot happen?

 

[pssh]

People if he is on his belly on the cage bottom he needs to go to the vet. Is there a reason that cannot happen?

She said her appointment is in 8 days.

 

[Julirs]

Waiting eight days is a death sentence.

 

[thatsme]

yea for sure....we just had our 6 month old die not too lonng ago.....she had severe mbd and was laying on her belly at the bottom of the cage....get her to a vet asap....

i felt horrible when our Layla died...

 

[JessicaRoberts]

Added pictures of him at the top of the first post. I did the shower thing today for about 20 minutes on my lunch break. He breaks my heart when he tries to move, he just looks like he's hurting. We installed a dripper, which is probably too late. The vet moved my appt. up to Friday, they said that's the soonest they could do. Friday is closer than next Tuesday, but still, it's 4 days. I don't know if he can live for 4 days.

My heart is just breaking. Any tips to keep him going til then are appreciated. Also, will anyone know a ballpark price amount for this vet appointment? I know the initial visit is $40, but I don't know what will happen there. Xrays?

 

[thatsme]

if the vet knows chameleons they can tell by looking at them if they have mbd....so i doubt they will do xrays....and the price will change depending on what they would need to do....id figure they weould give the little guy a calcium booster

both his back legs look broken....is he eating??

 

[pssh]

if the vet knows chameleons they can tell by looking at them if they have mbd....so i doubt they will do xrays....and the price will change depending on what they would need to do....id figure they weould give the little guy a calcium booster

both his back legs look broken....is he eating??

That's becausethey ARE broken. He needs a vet NOW! Find a different one if you need to. He does Not look good at all.

 

[Julirs]

Oh that breaks my heart. You HAD to see that his legs were deformed-this did not happen overnight! This guy really has no chance of a normal life-or even any kind of sub-normal life.

You don't need x-rays-it is clear as can be, and you won't be able to fix his legs. When it gets this bad they usually also have organ failure. I would put this guy out of his obvious misery.

 

[kinyonga]

There is no need for a vet to do xrays to determine if he has MBD...all you have to do is look at his legs.

Since he is not eating and sitting on the bottom of the cage, you need to get him to a vet right away...not in 8 days. In the meantime, you can give him liquid calcium. What does the one you got from the pet store have in it?

The quickest way to give this poor chameleon a chance is for the vet to give it calcium injections until its blood calcium levels are high enough to give it a shot of calcitonin to quickly draw the calcium back into its bones.

The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent tube Repti-sun 5.0. The UVB from it should not pass through glass or plastic.

Appropriate temperatures will aid in digestion and play an indirect part in nutrient absorption...so until he can sit back up in the branches, I would try to keep the cage in the low to mid 80's since he has limited movement due to his condition. This way you won't bake him but he should be warm enough to digest his food.

MBD not only affects the bones, it affects the muscles, so the food may be slow to move through his system right now. It can lead to constipation too. It might be good to give him more easily digested food for a while until he can get stronger.

In addition to correcting the MBD, you will, of course have to correct its husbandry so it won't recur.

Here are some good sites to read in the meantime...
http://adcham.com/html/veterinary/mbd-fractures-kramer.html
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

 

[JessicaRoberts]

Oh that breaks my heart. You HAD to see that his legs were deformed-this did not happen overnight! This guy really has no chance of a normal life-or even any kind of sub-normal life.

You don't need x-rays-it is clear as can be, and you won't be able to fix his legs. When it gets this bad they usually also have organ failure. I would put this guy out of his obvious misery.

This is what has me so confused, because I agree that his legs look horrible and that I should've noticed it by now. I posted a picture earlier of him about 4 weeks ago and he was fine! ( I took it down because I felt 5 pictures was too many) When I was holding him Saturday the bottom of his feet looked a little swollen, but nothing like this.. he was climbing, hanging upside down by them, this severity has happened over a matter of about 2 days. I'm not sure if it's the result of a fall that I didn't see or what.



My husband agrees with you that we should just put him out of his misery. He feels there's really nothing a vet can do for him. I just hate not trying, I really don't know what to do but I know he's hurting. And his legs are baaad. And as horrible as this may sound, I don't want to spend hundreds of dollars at a vet if it's a general consensus that he will not live. I'm very torn between putting him out of his misery if he will not live a normal life, or still trying everything I can with hopes that his legs will heal.